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Pairc Ui Chaoimh

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so now the gaa's great white elephant is 25m over cost,needing a new pitch,and cork county board have had responsibility for the finances taken off them.
this was a disaster from the word go,nobody wants to play there,getting there is a complete disaster,it is the ultimate example of poor planning,keep on trucking and worry about the costs later.
what a mess.

perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3929 - 14/12/2018 10:48:40    2154251

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Way over spend, but im sick of people calling it a white elephant, it had 2 munster hurling games, munster football final, All Ireland QF, 3 Ed Sheeran concerts and Liam Miller match and not to mention county championship games, hardly a white elephant, but that is a massive cost for what they built

PyatPree (Cork) - Posts: 376 - 14/12/2018 11:08:31    2154252

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Replying To PyatPree:  "Way over spend, but im sick of people calling it a white elephant, it had 2 munster hurling games, munster football final, All Ireland QF, 3 Ed Sheeran concerts and Liam Miller match and not to mention county championship games, hardly a white elephant, but that is a massive cost for what they built"
Yeah but lets face it, it shouldn't have held the All-Ireland Quarter final, it very nearly didn't hold the Liam Miller match and 3 Ed Sheeran concerts would sell out if they had them in Cloyne GAA Club.
The overspend is a disgrace, and who else is going to lose out only the GAA clubs who would otherwise have benefited from this 25m.
The location of the stadium is awful, it along with Salthill is the worst located major stadium in the country. Yes its swanky, shiny and new but if you put lipstick on a pig its still a pig.
The GAA will rue the day they ever re-built that stadium, my father remembers the 1976 replay being played there and said it was a bad location back then. Very few people would dispute that fact.

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1729 - 14/12/2018 12:31:03    2154258

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This is an absolute scandal. To overspend by €25 million is outrageous.

890202 (Wexford) - Posts: 1278 - 14/12/2018 12:54:30    2154262

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Replying To StoreysTash:  "Yeah but lets face it, it shouldn't have held the All-Ireland Quarter final, it very nearly didn't hold the Liam Miller match and 3 Ed Sheeran concerts would sell out if they had them in Cloyne GAA Club.
The overspend is a disgrace, and who else is going to lose out only the GAA clubs who would otherwise have benefited from this 25m.
The location of the stadium is awful, it along with Salthill is the worst located major stadium in the country. Yes its swanky, shiny and new but if you put lipstick on a pig its still a pig.
The GAA will rue the day they ever re-built that stadium, my father remembers the 1976 replay being played there and said it was a bad location back then. Very few people would dispute that fact."
I agree with the QF final one, they picked the wrong teams to play there when it came to distance wise, but PuC gets more matches and concerts then most county grounds

PyatPree (Cork) - Posts: 376 - 14/12/2018 13:07:48    2154264

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If I'm not mistaken, very shortly after completion it was inspected by the world rugby crew with regard to being a venue for Ireland's World Cup bid, it wasn't deemed up to standard by them in many regards. For what was spent on it and given how new it was, that's a slap in the face if ever there was one. White Elephant isn't a misplaced term I feel..

Sweetspot (Kildare) - Posts: 323 - 14/12/2018 13:21:25    2154267

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I'd have a different opinion to be honest.

Its a huge capital outlay and it looks optimistic in terms of how they were going to manage it and poor they they didn't envisage an overspend.

But i actually admire the gumption to do this project and i really dont have a problem with the GAA now coming in and better supporting the project financially more then they have to this point.

Its a capital infrastructure profit, they inevitably have a deficit in the short term but long term it will pay for itself many times over over the next 100 years. Similar to Croke Park how many times will Croke Park pay for itself over the years.

The long term benefit of a marquee stadium in the biggest city in Munster is a vital aspiration in my opinion.

It should be the same in Connacht and Ulster, games beging funneled to Corke Park every year isnt good for anyone and each province should have the ability to host semi final games in my opinion and should be something the GAA should aspire to, plan and support.

The GAA needs to look at infrastructure and future proofing key provincial marquee facilitates as an attainable aspiration and i hope they learn from the experience at PUC and actually prompt a development plan around this.

As for the reporting on this when it comes to the quality of reporting on GAA fiance this is like so many sensationalist, very narrow and without proper analysis, just my opinion mind.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 14/12/2018 13:21:52    2154268

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My god its just so disheartening and very timely and sobbering too. There is a reason for venues not being viable financially for hosting big games and games are held there at huge financial losses. Cork are not the only county to have to be bailed out look at Kildare and then the stupidity of hosting a game in a stadium not fit for purpose. We are either in the game of having state of the art facillites or we are not. You cant have it both ways. The main reason my county is forced to play in croke park is to generate income to pay for the likes of PUC. But shocking that something can over run by 25 million what a waste, so disheartening. HQ have to do an audit of facilites and work out redevelopment and upgrade packages for county facillites that are not up to scratch otherwise the GAA will be bankrupted.

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4893 - 14/12/2018 13:30:53    2154269

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The clubs of Cork were never consulted. In 1976 there was over spend too. We were bailed out then by Siamsa and Oliver Barry promotions plus we were handy back then too. We won All Irelands in both codes at senior, dominated underage and our club teams were absolutely dominant meaning huge games in club championships in Cork. Any Stade du Frank has been built. He is gone. Now we pick up the pieces

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 14/12/2018 13:58:44    2154273

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For those of us who point out the failure in leadership by those full time salaried people in the Association, here is a classic example. Cork County Board have a number of full time officials, so too the Munster Council & then those in Croke Park. Those in Croke Park have overall responsibility for the whole Association & all its branches. This project was driven by Croke Park/Cork County Board & rode on the coat tails of the RWC application. As pointed out in a great article by Cormac Byrne in the Indo, there were huge question marks from the start, but they were dismissed. One Cork official was quoted as saying they would pay off the debt in two years !!! Let's not forget the initial costing was €70 Million, so it's to date a €40 Million overspend, in most projects if this happened, people would be fired & an investigation launched. This is not even the final figure, so it could go higher & a so called brand new pitch now has to be relaid, which will cost a massive six figure sum & may have to have Hawk Eye be installed for the big games so they can reach the €2 Million mark needed annually to service the debt. The problem within the GAA is the lack of transparency & let's not forget the Cork official at this years Congress who dismissed the CPA's motion on transparency, maybe now we can see why ! Hard questions need to be asked, who was project managing this, why weren't Croke Park overseeing budgets & project management of a multi million Euro project. Will details be made public on where they overspend was. Was tendering & management of same above board, what companies were given contracts & was it all above board, has there been conflict of interest at any stage. What Government or lending institutions would now give the GAA massive sums when they can't even manage their budget or get their costings correct. Sadly as we saw in Galway where there has been another mismanagement of Millions, nobody is named, nobody is accountable, its all sanitised & swept under the carpet, if you question anything you are pilliored, that is why they have been getting away with things, because people don't have the guts to speak up & tell the truth. PUC will now have qualifiers, Munster finals, everything at a cost to everybody else to pay for it. As we saw this year, fans will vote with their feet & not go. I was wondering why the Cork County finals were such a price this year, now we know why. The talk from all now will be of lessons learned, systems put in place, moving forward, all the usual claptrap, when everyone can now see that the Association from top to bottom is rudderless, leaderless, lacking transparency & is rotten to the core.

Uimhir.a.3. (Galway) - Posts: 409 - 14/12/2018 14:13:06    2154276

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Replying To bennybunny:  "The clubs of Cork were never consulted. In 1976 there was over spend too. We were bailed out then by Siamsa and Oliver Barry promotions plus we were handy back then too. We won All Irelands in both codes at senior, dominated underage and our club teams were absolutely dominant meaning huge games in club championships in Cork. Any Stade du Frank has been built. He is gone. Now we pick up the pieces"
Yea, Frank Murphy is gone, debt left behind but not only that he spent the last few years of his tenure "developing PuC" and he let the GAA in general fall down around his ears. It's ages since Cork had a good minor team in either code, the footballers being beaten by Tipperary and humiliated by Kerry, Dublin going down to Cork and beating Cork in the NHL. It would have been a better idea to leave Frank in charge of the day-to-day running of the GAA in the county and appoint a development company to look after the redevelopment of Pairc Ui Chaoimh. Oh yes ban him from going anywhere near the grounds once the developers moved in.

MillerX (Meath) - Posts: 1061 - 14/12/2018 14:24:35    2154277

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Replying To TheUsername:  "I'd have a different opinion to be honest.

Its a huge capital outlay and it looks optimistic in terms of how they were going to manage it and poor they they didn't envisage an overspend.

But i actually admire the gumption to do this project and i really dont have a problem with the GAA now coming in and better supporting the project financially more then they have to this point.

Its a capital infrastructure profit, they inevitably have a deficit in the short term but long term it will pay for itself many times over over the next 100 years. Similar to Croke Park how many times will Croke Park pay for itself over the years.

The long term benefit of a marquee stadium in the biggest city in Munster is a vital aspiration in my opinion.

It should be the same in Connacht and Ulster, games beging funneled to Corke Park every year isnt good for anyone and each province should have the ability to host semi final games in my opinion and should be something the GAA should aspire to, plan and support.

The GAA needs to look at infrastructure and future proofing key provincial marquee facilitates as an attainable aspiration and i hope they learn from the experience at PUC and actually prompt a development plan around this.

As for the reporting on this when it comes to the quality of reporting on GAA fiance this is like so many sensationalist, very narrow and without proper analysis, just my opinion mind."
Lol, your last paragraph is straight from the Donald Trump box of fake news. The facts given by Peter Mc Kenna who has had to go public with this & was then relayed by the media is according to you sensationalist, very narrow & without proper analysis, LOL. The only thing without proper analysis was proper QS work & budgeting.

Uimhir.a.3. (Galway) - Posts: 409 - 14/12/2018 14:28:07    2154279

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Replying To PyatPree:  "Way over spend, but im sick of people calling it a white elephant, it had 2 munster hurling games, munster football final, All Ireland QF, 3 Ed Sheeran concerts and Liam Miller match and not to mention county championship games, hardly a white elephant, but that is a massive cost for what they built"
You should look up the definition of a white elephant, let's see how the estimated €2 Million needed annually as forecast to service the debt goes.

Uimhir.a.3. (Galway) - Posts: 409 - 14/12/2018 14:32:16    2154280

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I really hate the GAA's "build it and they will come" mentality.
No they won't. Build it in the right place and only play matches there that suit the counties involved and they will come.
Wexford v Clare in Cork and Limerick v Kilkenny in Thurles said it all for me this year. What brain box thought that'd work? (OK I know the Kilkenny man at the helm of the CCCC had a lot to do with it, but still).
The more matches the GAA try to put there the more fans will vote with their feet. I am in college with a load of lads and we all went to Wexford matches everywhere as we know the lads playing, but we didn't go to Cork.
This is the ultimate disaster for the GAA in terms of planning, cost control, and transparency.
They better get Ed Sheeran, Garth Brooks and Cotton Eye Joe warmed up for a number of years because they will need them all to pay for this.
But to be honest, Cork is a big enough county that they should be footing the bill for this themselves. Not the GAA.

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1729 - 14/12/2018 15:05:23    2154286

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Replying To Uimhir.a.3.:  "For those of us who point out the failure in leadership by those full time salaried people in the Association, here is a classic example. Cork County Board have a number of full time officials, so too the Munster Council & then those in Croke Park. Those in Croke Park have overall responsibility for the whole Association & all its branches. This project was driven by Croke Park/Cork County Board & rode on the coat tails of the RWC application. As pointed out in a great article by Cormac Byrne in the Indo, there were huge question marks from the start, but they were dismissed. One Cork official was quoted as saying they would pay off the debt in two years !!! Let's not forget the initial costing was €70 Million, so it's to date a €40 Million overspend, in most projects if this happened, people would be fired & an investigation launched. This is not even the final figure, so it could go higher & a so called brand new pitch now has to be relaid, which will cost a massive six figure sum & may have to have Hawk Eye be installed for the big games so they can reach the €2 Million mark needed annually to service the debt. The problem within the GAA is the lack of transparency & let's not forget the Cork official at this years Congress who dismissed the CPA's motion on transparency, maybe now we can see why ! Hard questions need to be asked, who was project managing this, why weren't Croke Park overseeing budgets & project management of a multi million Euro project. Will details be made public on where they overspend was. Was tendering & management of same above board, what companies were given contracts & was it all above board, has there been conflict of interest at any stage. What Government or lending institutions would now give the GAA massive sums when they can't even manage their budget or get their costings correct. Sadly as we saw in Galway where there has been another mismanagement of Millions, nobody is named, nobody is accountable, its all sanitised & swept under the carpet, if you question anything you are pilliored, that is why they have been getting away with things, because people don't have the guts to speak up & tell the truth. PUC will now have qualifiers, Munster finals, everything at a cost to everybody else to pay for it. As we saw this year, fans will vote with their feet & not go. I was wondering why the Cork County finals were such a price this year, now we know why. The talk from all now will be of lessons learned, systems put in place, moving forward, all the usual claptrap, when everyone can now see that the Association from top to bottom is rudderless, leaderless, lacking transparency & is rotten to the core."
This is one of the best posts ever written here

890202 (Wexford) - Posts: 1278 - 14/12/2018 15:15:25    2154287

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Replying To Uimhir.a.3.:  "For those of us who point out the failure in leadership by those full time salaried people in the Association, here is a classic example. Cork County Board have a number of full time officials, so too the Munster Council & then those in Croke Park. Those in Croke Park have overall responsibility for the whole Association & all its branches. This project was driven by Croke Park/Cork County Board & rode on the coat tails of the RWC application. As pointed out in a great article by Cormac Byrne in the Indo, there were huge question marks from the start, but they were dismissed. One Cork official was quoted as saying they would pay off the debt in two years !!! Let's not forget the initial costing was €70 Million, so it's to date a €40 Million overspend, in most projects if this happened, people would be fired & an investigation launched. This is not even the final figure, so it could go higher & a so called brand new pitch now has to be relaid, which will cost a massive six figure sum & may have to have Hawk Eye be installed for the big games so they can reach the €2 Million mark needed annually to service the debt. The problem within the GAA is the lack of transparency & let's not forget the Cork official at this years Congress who dismissed the CPA's motion on transparency, maybe now we can see why ! Hard questions need to be asked, who was project managing this, why weren't Croke Park overseeing budgets & project management of a multi million Euro project. Will details be made public on where they overspend was. Was tendering & management of same above board, what companies were given contracts & was it all above board, has there been conflict of interest at any stage. What Government or lending institutions would now give the GAA massive sums when they can't even manage their budget or get their costings correct. Sadly as we saw in Galway where there has been another mismanagement of Millions, nobody is named, nobody is accountable, its all sanitised & swept under the carpet, if you question anything you are pilliored, that is why they have been getting away with things, because people don't have the guts to speak up & tell the truth. PUC will now have qualifiers, Munster finals, everything at a cost to everybody else to pay for it. As we saw this year, fans will vote with their feet & not go. I was wondering why the Cork County finals were such a price this year, now we know why. The talk from all now will be of lessons learned, systems put in place, moving forward, all the usual claptrap, when everyone can now see that the Association from top to bottom is rudderless, leaderless, lacking transparency & is rotten to the core."
County convention is on this Sunday. Clubs can ask questions there. It is Frank's final hour in charge. The platitudes might be awkward.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 14/12/2018 15:44:08    2154288

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Replying To Uimhir.a.3.:  "Lol, your last paragraph is straight from the Donald Trump box of fake news. The facts given by Peter Mc Kenna who has had to go public with this & was then relayed by the media is according to you sensationalist, very narrow & without proper analysis, LOL. The only thing without proper analysis was proper QS work & budgeting."
Thats your opinion mate, if you have an axe to grind that is fair enough. Many jump to criticism and faux outrage in this digital age.

For a project like this, with a dynamic funding model that was its inception a 30 million over spend is pretty decent as things go. But that is more of a capital economic debate.

When you are looking at capital infrastructure projects, you cant equate it to the one unilateral number, you have to look at a funding value model over many years. You cant just look at overspent of 30 million and say its scandalous. If the project produces a profit of so much a year over 100 years, the cost is negligible long term. Thats why i think the reporting of this sensationalist and narrow. In that time the value of the infrastructure and site is going to grow exponentially.

The same arguments were made when Croke Park was being built and has and will pay for itself many times over, so will PUC. Hence my narrow and sensationalist comments.

In fact the only interesting thing worth debating here is the sea change in ownership of GAA grounds, looks like they may implement a business model similar to Croke Park here.

I think its terrific project for Munster GAA and id like to see more projects like it developed nationally with similar planning and infrastructure if im honest.

No reason why PUC cant host quarter final and semi final games and in the spirit of the sport i think it should, as i think every province should.

Each to their own if you axe to grind though.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 14/12/2018 15:54:02    2154290

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With Thurles,Kilarney and Limerick all able to host Munster Finals what was the need for the project in the first place.

gunman (Donegal) - Posts: 1055 - 14/12/2018 17:01:22    2154297

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None of GAA matches here have sold out or even close in the first year. Very poor attendances for the 1/4 finals. Massive vanity project for Frank Murphy. The club volunteers around Cork out selling club lottery tickets tonight and packing bags tomorrow must be feeling very low now

bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4624 - 14/12/2018 17:53:25    2154299

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Replying To Uimhir.a.3.:  "You should look up the definition of a white elephant, let's see how the estimated €2 Million needed annually as forecast to service the debt goes."
You could argue its a long term plan

PyatPree (Cork) - Posts: 376 - 14/12/2018 18:06:07    2154302

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