National Forum

Kerry And Dublin Have An Unfair Advantage.

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Replying To TheUsername:  "The snippets i have heard, have been Ulster Counties migrating to Connacht and Leinster into Munster. That makes no sense to me, amalgamate the two most competitive provincial championships and then amalgamate the two weakest. If it was Connacht into Munster and Ulster into Leinster it would make more sense.

I cant see it being a long term solution, quality and success are moving targets, once its done its done and it will be the same old thing with counties appexing and regressing.

Perhaps if they had a minimum requirement for so many Div 1 teams in a province it could work, but then you run the risk of teams not minding getting relegated to have a handier championship.

This, congress and the new rules all seem very reactionary to a specific moment in time to me and no long terms future proofing built into almost anything as the game is about to be diced up and football as we know it forever to be changed a big risk within that of it not being for the better."
The main stumbling block to the open draw or 2 tier championship are the provincials. Connacht and Ulster only have football as a revenue stream. Munster and Leinster are probably making more from hurling now. If you can come up with a way to maintain some provincial importance it might swing it. I have a cunning plan.

So, it goes a bit like this:
1. Run the league as usual in spring and then start the championship in each province on the first week of May.
2. Run the provincials as usual but add a bit of relevance by making the provincial finalists top seeds in each of 8 groups, losing semi finalists would be second seeds and teams cannot play each other again.
3. Because of the unequal numbers in the provinces, from there on the bottom seedings are decided on league placing, which would add a bit more relevance to the league as well.

So, take the 2019 championship

Pot1 Kerry, Cork, Dublin, Meath, Roscommon, Galway, Cavan, Donegal

Pot2 Limerick, Clare, Kildare, Laois, Sligo, Mayo, Armagh, Tyrone

Pot3 Monaghan, Down, Tipperary, Offaly, Westmeath, Longford, Louth, Fermanagh

Pot4: Wicklow, Wexford, London, Carlow, Waterford, Antrim, Leitrim, Derry

The Competition:
1. Play these off on a home/away/neutral venue basis.
2. Top 2 in each group qualify for quarter finals and all games from QF onwards are played in Croker.
3. Use the likes of Omagh, Breffni Park, Clones, Gaelic Grounds, Pairc ui Caoimh, Semple Stadium, Navan, Portlaoise, Tullamore, McHale Park, Hyde Park - not Croke Park if possible - as neutral venues and give them a chance to pay off some debt. Double headers are just as good in Cork as they are in Dublin.

So if I pick Carlow and Monaghan as the strongest teams in the bottom pots, you could have a group containing
Cork
Roscommon
Monaghan
Carlow

Any of those 4 could potentially make a semi if Carlow got Cork in Cullen Park and pulled it off.

Similarly you could have
Dublin
Tyrone
Monaghan
Carlow.
Carlow wouldn't have much chance here but they would have 3 seriously high quality matches. Any of the other 3 could make it in and the standard would be every bit as high as the Super 8s.

If the mismatches were too much to bear, then just split it into 2 tiers at this stage - pot 1 and 2 going for Sam Maguire, Pot 3 and 4 going for the tier 2 cup.

I think it works better than basing it off of league position alone. Limerick beat Tipp so deserve a shot at the big time even if they would be in line for heavy losses, there'd be a big crowd out to watch them play the likes of Donegal, Mayo or Dublin - teams they'd never meet in league or championship in a normal year.

kingdom_come (Kerry) - Posts: 62 - 26/10/2019 11:23:26    2245907

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To lessen risk of mismatches -
How about 'handicapped' groups ?

- Put a 2 and 3 seed in each group as proposed,
- BUT add a PAIR of 1s (to 4 STRONG groups) and a PAIR of 4s (to 4 LESS STRONG groups)
- Only teams without 1 win from 3 matches are out
- Number of teams, equal to the team quantity eliminated, but with the best records get byes to Rd of 16
- All others play in a Prelim KO Rds for Rd of 16 berths
- AI QF 8 to pot 1 for next year; lowest NFL 8 to pot 4.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1668 - 17/11/2019 04:07:40    2249944

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Replying To Joxer:  "Hardly that exciting and unpredictable if 9 of the last 11 Ulster Championships have been won by just two counties. The Provincial Championships are in serious trouble with only one or two counties dominating in each."
Have a 'Prov Champs 4' Playoff Rd - 2 winners to AI KO QFs, 2 losers to Qualifier Rd of 12 (Rd 3, for 6 remaining QF berths).
20-team KO Rd 2 with 'Prov Finals losers 4' and top 2 from each of Rd 1's 'Non-Prov Finalists, 8 groups of 3'.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1668 - 17/11/2019 04:14:59    2249945

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Declan Bonner calls out the Greatest Team of All Time and Kerry. Saying that both the Leinster and Munster and the lack of competitiveness in both Provincial championship Championships are contributing and enabling successes to both Kerry and Dublin that Counties in Ulster and Cannacht dot enjoy.

"If you look at Munster and Leinster, and especially Kerry and Dublin, they don't need to plan or get ready for a championship match in the second or third week of May," Bonner told the Irish Daily Star.

"They can plan their preparation until July or August and structure their training accordingly. But in Ulster, many counties have to peak for May and it is very difficult to maintain that momentum right through the whole summer - that is unequal.

"That is one of the down sides and it gives teams like Kerry and Dublin an unfair advantage. In Ulster we have to be ready and competitive right from the start."

As a Dub i find it very hard to disagree with him, The Leinster Championship and Munster Championship are significant advantages to both Dublin and Kerry and in my opinion creates a distinct advantage to these teams in comparison to Mayo, Roscommon, Galway, Armagh, Tyrone, Donegal, Cavan, Mongahan etc.

The provincial championship structures are a complete unfair advantage to Dublin and Kerry in my opinion and that speaking objectively. Change in needed in my opinion!?"
Dublin are the greatest team of all time and would likely dominate any provincial championship. However there is nothing new in his arguments. The Ulster Championship has always been the most competitive province - look back at teams from Ulster who have won the Sam Maguire.

Whilst maybe not always being given credit for how good they are it takes a great team to compete in the Ulster Championship and then go on and win the All Ireland. If it's an average year the likes of Kerry and Dublin will win the All Ireland; the only way a team from Ulster will win it is if they're at the absolute top of their game and have used every last bit of energy left in them by September.

To Ulster's credit they have produced such teams over the years, really well prepared teams; the problem these great teams have is the journey they need to start again a few months later. The likes of Kerry and Dublin even after winning an All Ireland have 11 months to prepare for another crack.

It would be a pity to see the Ulster Championship changed - it's tough but 5 of the 9 competitiors have won the Sam Maguire in the last 30 years an incredible statistic and shows how special a championship it is.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 527 - 17/11/2019 11:08:32    2249961

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Replying To sam1884:  "Dublin are the greatest team of all time and would likely dominate any provincial championship. However there is nothing new in his arguments. The Ulster Championship has always been the most competitive province - look back at teams from Ulster who have won the Sam Maguire.

Whilst maybe not always being given credit for how good they are it takes a great team to compete in the Ulster Championship and then go on and win the All Ireland. If it's an average year the likes of Kerry and Dublin will win the All Ireland; the only way a team from Ulster will win it is if they're at the absolute top of their game and have used every last bit of energy left in them by September.

To Ulster's credit they have produced such teams over the years, really well prepared teams; the problem these great teams have is the journey they need to start again a few months later. The likes of Kerry and Dublin even after winning an All Ireland have 11 months to prepare for another crack.

It would be a pity to see the Ulster Championship changed - it's tough but 5 of the 9 competitiors have won the Sam Maguire in the last 30 years an incredible statistic and shows how special a championship it is."
The Ulster championship is quite competitive.

I think it's over-stated though and I think it's because so many Ulster counties have had success over the years.

You hear of say Donegal's runs to win Ulster and it will include victories over Armagh, Down, Derry and it sounds impressive. These are teams that have won All Irelands.

I don't think in reality Ulster is as hard as the perception.

Armagh, Down, Derry are at around the same standards as Laois, Westmeath, Longford or Tipperary and Clare but I think they're being perceived as better than they are because they had memorable successes in a way that those other Leinster and Munster counties haven't.

Ulster is competitive but I think the standard of the competition is somewhat regarded higher than it should be.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 2794 - 17/11/2019 12:45:29    2249973

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Replying To Whammo86:  "The Ulster championship is quite competitive.

I think it's over-stated though and I think it's because so many Ulster counties have had success over the years.

You hear of say Donegal's runs to win Ulster and it will include victories over Armagh, Down, Derry and it sounds impressive. These are teams that have won All Irelands.

I don't think in reality Ulster is as hard as the perception.

Armagh, Down, Derry are at around the same standards as Laois, Westmeath, Longford or Tipperary and Clare but I think they're being perceived as better than they are because they had memorable successes in a way that those other Leinster and Munster counties haven't.

Ulster is competitive but I think the standard of the competition is somewhat regarded higher than it should be."
very accurate, I would even say that Ulster is a great place to get games under the belt before getting to Croke Park

suckvalleypaddy (Galway) - Posts: 1301 - 17/11/2019 14:12:38    2249982

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Replying To Whammo86:  "The Ulster championship is quite competitive.

I think it's over-stated though and I think it's because so many Ulster counties have had success over the years.

You hear of say Donegal's runs to win Ulster and it will include victories over Armagh, Down, Derry and it sounds impressive. These are teams that have won All Irelands.

I don't think in reality Ulster is as hard as the perception.

Armagh, Down, Derry are at around the same standards as Laois, Westmeath, Longford or Tipperary and Clare but I think they're being perceived as better than they are because they had memorable successes in a way that those other Leinster and Munster counties haven't.

Ulster is competitive but I think the standard of the competition is somewhat regarded higher than it should be."
I'd say it's quite harsh to call the Ulster Championship over rated. I'd agree in the current climate Dublin are so far ahead and would win multiple All Ireland's even playing in Ulster.

With Dublin so unique we are in strange times but outside of that it doesn't take away the fact Ulster is a minefield. Every era produces three top Ulster teams at any one time - the 90's peak probably produced 5 great teams of which three won All Ireland's. The 00's produced three incredibly strong teams which two won All Ireland's before Donegal could make a breakthrough in the next decade - a decade that had very good Tyrone and Monaghan teams.

Of course not all 9 teams are strong at the one time and the province is probably going through it's weakest era in a generation - it's still a marker to how competitive the province is when 5 different counties have won a Senior All Ireland in the same time 5 counties from the rest of the provinces combined have done the same.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 527 - 17/11/2019 15:36:34    2249998

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Replying To hipster:  "A load of jibberish,"
Why do you say that?

essmac (Tyrone) - Posts: 607 - 17/11/2019 16:26:39    2250010

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Replying To ZUL10:  "He would probably the first to complain if they got rid of the Ulster championship for the greater good. There is an undertone of 'how great the ulster championship is' in this."
Pure speculation. He probably wouldn't.

essmac (Tyrone) - Posts: 607 - 17/11/2019 16:27:46    2250011

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