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What Needs To Be Done To Finally Get Rid Of The Provincial System?

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Two very significant interventions in to the Provincial Championships debate

"It's over as far as I'm concerned"

Former Longford manager Dennis Connerton says the Leinster SFC is "a lame duck".

https://hoganstand.com/Meath/Article/Index/304732


Time to "get rid of the provincial systems"

Colm O'Rourke says the provincial football championships should be scrapped.

https://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/304721


I realise that my contribution is just to copy and paste from 2 articles but, to varying degrees, the provincial (bar Ulster football and Munster hurling) are dead.

Can there be a serious discussion at the top level into the GAA that can provide an alternative that provides decent competition for players and supporters and that Ulster (Football) and Munster (Hurling) level of competition is not lost for those counties?

oldsam_newsam (Meath) - Posts: 638 - 08/10/2019 13:06:24    2242039

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Replying To oldsam_newsam:  "Two very significant interventions in to the Provincial Championships debate

"It's over as far as I'm concerned"

Former Longford manager Dennis Connerton says the Leinster SFC is "a lame duck".

https://hoganstand.com/Meath/Article/Index/304732


Time to "get rid of the provincial systems"

Colm O'Rourke says the provincial football championships should be scrapped.

https://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/304721


I realise that my contribution is just to copy and paste from 2 articles but, to varying degrees, the provincial (bar Ulster football and Munster hurling) are dead.

Can there be a serious discussion at the top level into the GAA that can provide an alternative that provides decent competition for players and supporters and that Ulster (Football) and Munster (Hurling) level of competition is not lost for those counties?"
Open draw fa cup style competition running at the same time as the league. Played off between April and September with weekends off for club football also

kick_it (Leitrim) - Posts: 15 - 08/10/2019 13:40:50    2242047

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The LHC is a provincial championship in name only. But it was a good championsdhip in 2019 and could be better in 2020.

ZUL10 (Clare) - Posts: 693 - 08/10/2019 13:52:23    2242048

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To answer the question about what needs to be done to get rid of the provincials, the answer is pretty simple really.

People just need to stop wasting their money going to these non-events.

Low attendances are the only way to kill them off as they are the only thing the GAA is concerned with now.

Even if it was a fair competition there is no longer any kudos in winning a provincial title as the All Ireland only starts once you get in the qualifiers. The provincials are glorified friendlies. Years ago people would have said the league didn't matter. That is now true of the provincials and they should just be scrapped. Why people continue to fork out up to €30 to go to these games is kind of baffling.

Greenfield (Meath) - Posts: 522 - 08/10/2019 14:06:54    2242051

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Throw the provincial councils a few hundred grand each . Ecsuse that's what the provincial championship is all about. MONEY.

Inaroundehouse (Cavan) - Posts: 975 - 08/10/2019 14:14:20    2242054

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They should do the same they did in the Hurling which had 2 dead duck Provinces. Do away with Munster and Leinster and remove their direct access. Make them play in a Mickey Mouse cup competition to see which two, both finalists, get to join the AI series at a 1/4 final stage. The other 6 teams being made up of the top 3 in Ulster and Connacht teams who have played out mini provincial leagues.

Good enough for the hurling, good enough for the football......

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 08/10/2019 14:23:59    2242058

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Replying To oldsam_newsam:  "Two very significant interventions in to the Provincial Championships debate

"It's over as far as I'm concerned"

Former Longford manager Dennis Connerton says the Leinster SFC is "a lame duck".

https://hoganstand.com/Meath/Article/Index/304732


Time to "get rid of the provincial systems"

Colm O'Rourke says the provincial football championships should be scrapped.

https://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/304721


I realise that my contribution is just to copy and paste from 2 articles but, to varying degrees, the provincial (bar Ulster football and Munster hurling) are dead.

Can there be a serious discussion at the top level into the GAA that can provide an alternative that provides decent competition for players and supporters and that Ulster (Football) and Munster (Hurling) level of competition is not lost for those counties?"
I don't even know if the MHC is much of a draw any more. I was speaking to a few Limerick supporters last weekend and they said a big factor in their success last year was the fact that they had to play in the preliminary quarter-finals which i) helped them iron out some of the kinks in the team's performance and ii) meant that there wasn't a big gap between playing the Munster final and the AI quarter finals / semi-finals. Most agreed it was "nice" to win the MHC but they'd gladly sacrifice this in 2020 to play regularly up to the point where they started playing the bigger teams. On this basis (and I acknowledge that a few isolated supporters don't speak for an entire county), the MHC is a bit of a lame duck too. Barring a few teams who have a chance of winning but don't win their provincial titles often (e.g. Dublin and Wexford in recent years), do any teams (or their supporters) really care about winning the LHC or MHC any more?

Kurt_Angle (Dublin) - Posts: 567 - 08/10/2019 16:30:40    2242100

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Replying To Greenfield:  "To answer the question about what needs to be done to get rid of the provincials, the answer is pretty simple really.

People just need to stop wasting their money going to these non-events.

Low attendances are the only way to kill them off as they are the only thing the GAA is concerned with now.

Even if it was a fair competition there is no longer any kudos in winning a provincial title as the All Ireland only starts once you get in the qualifiers. The provincials are glorified friendlies. Years ago people would have said the league didn't matter. That is now true of the provincials and they should just be scrapped. Why people continue to fork out up to €30 to go to these games is kind of baffling."
A lot of kudos in winning some of our provincial titles. OK, you have a problem in Leinster with Dublin being so dominant and you have to try to sort out your problem and stop running away from it. It is ridiculous to describe the championship games in Ulster and Connacht as glorified friendlies or non-events.

neverright (Roscommon) - Posts: 1648 - 08/10/2019 16:57:25    2242105

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I agree with Greenfield, just stop supporting it.

The Provincial Councils are full of lads who have worked hard to get to their position, and who have further ambitions. Players, clubs, Counties, fans are not their priority.

Getting rid of the Provincial Championships is like asking the Turkey to vote on Christmas!

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1415 - 08/10/2019 17:00:54    2242107

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Replying To Kurt_Angle:  "I don't even know if the MHC is much of a draw any more. I was speaking to a few Limerick supporters last weekend and they said a big factor in their success last year was the fact that they had to play in the preliminary quarter-finals which i) helped them iron out some of the kinks in the team's performance and ii) meant that there wasn't a big gap between playing the Munster final and the AI quarter finals / semi-finals. Most agreed it was "nice" to win the MHC but they'd gladly sacrifice this in 2020 to play regularly up to the point where they started playing the bigger teams. On this basis (and I acknowledge that a few isolated supporters don't speak for an entire county), the MHC is a bit of a lame duck too. Barring a few teams who have a chance of winning but don't win their provincial titles often (e.g. Dublin and Wexford in recent years), do any teams (or their supporters) really care about winning the LHC or MHC any more?"
Was a pretty big crowd running on to the pitch in PngG to celebrate winning MHC. Attendance wise it's still a very popular final too.

Yes we would trade it for an All Ireland win but that's going on the assumption that coming 3rd in Munster this year would have definitely meant winning the AI and ignoring the fact that Cork came 3rd and KK beat them same as us.

As for football weather they stay provincial or go open draw most sports seem to agree that the best formula is group then knockout

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1236 - 08/10/2019 17:12:20    2242109

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Replying To Greenfield:  "To answer the question about what needs to be done to get rid of the provincials, the answer is pretty simple really.

People just need to stop wasting their money going to these non-events.

Low attendances are the only way to kill them off as they are the only thing the GAA is concerned with now.

Even if it was a fair competition there is no longer any kudos in winning a provincial title as the All Ireland only starts once you get in the qualifiers. The provincials are glorified friendlies. Years ago people would have said the league didn't matter. That is now true of the provincials and they should just be scrapped. Why people continue to fork out up to €30 to go to these games is kind of baffling."
Because people love to watch their teams playing football, this is the competition that their teams are playing in. It's either that or not get to watch them at all.

Douglas_44 (Roscommon) - Posts: 225 - 08/10/2019 18:06:35    2242125

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Provincial Championships are probably a product of a different age, when travelling from one end of the country to the other was a substantial undertaking.

In general, they've probably had their day. But the fact remains that the Munster Hurling and Ulster Football Championships have thrown up some great, entertaining games which I, for one, would be reluctant to forgo.

On the other hand, that's because the results are unpredictable and we might well be compensated if we switched to some form of ability based competition where there was uncertainty of outcome.

lionofludesch (Down) - Posts: 475 - 08/10/2019 18:22:45    2242132

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I feel that moving the provincials to the start of the season could give them a new lease of life.

March/April for provincials as the preparatory competitions rather than the National leagues.

May to September for a broadly league based championship with break weekends to schedule club competitions.

Give the Provincials more from Central council to make up for a deficit in their finances.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4211 - 08/10/2019 18:40:31    2242139

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Munster/Leinster hurling are class. Ulster/Connaught football are decent. Munster football is bad but potential to get good again with Cork. Leinster there is no hope.

The provincials shouldn't be scraped because of Dublin. Leinster should be fixed by not having Dublin compete in it.

Rotate them to a different province each year, give a bye to the super 8's. Start them round 1 of the qualifiers. Anything is better then Dublin winning the next 30 Leinsters in a row.

Jack_Goff (Meath) - Posts: 2920 - 08/10/2019 21:33:25    2242191

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Replying To Jack_Goff:  "Munster/Leinster hurling are class. Ulster/Connaught football are decent. Munster football is bad but potential to get good again with Cork. Leinster there is no hope.

The provincials shouldn't be scraped because of Dublin. Leinster should be fixed by not having Dublin compete in it.

Rotate them to a different province each year, give a bye to the super 8's. Start them round 1 of the qualifiers. Anything is better then Dublin winning the next 30 Leinsters in a row."
And for the umpteenth time you role out this rotate Dublin around the provinces rubbish , we heard you all ready , we all know what you want , no need for this constant obsession to be repeated year after year , what about Waterford Tipp and Limerick in Munster , over a hundred years since they won a Munster title , Kerry have won 81 Munster titles , Munster is more of a basket case than Leinster , but you don't give a monkeys about these counties , how come there's no call from yourself about sending Kerry around the provences to give these counties a realistic chance of winning a Munster title ??

superbluedub (Dublin) - Posts: 2837 - 08/10/2019 21:57:19    2242204

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You cant get rid of the provincial competitions but their role in deciding all Ireland champions must be changed.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3499 - 08/10/2019 22:22:13    2242213

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Provincials are all that the smaller counties (outside the big 2 at the moment) can hope to win. I don't think there will be a big rush to get rid of them for that reason. Factor in the tradition of provincials into a conservative organisation like the GAA and there is no way they will get rid of them.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 08/10/2019 23:14:52    2242222

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In this decade Dublin and Kerry have each won nine provincial titles and eight All Ireland's between them. They will probably share the majority of All Ireland titles between them in the coming decade as well but we won't be scrapping the All Ireland championship as a result of this dominance. An Ulster or Connacht medal still has some currency and is a valued acknowledgement or consolation in an era where the big prize is out of reach for all but a few counties. I have met some provincial winning footballers from Roscommon, Sligo, Leitrim,Clare, Cavan, Monaghan, Laois and Westmeath and they are all cherish their medals. This consolation will not exist if we go for a straight knock out or Championship league format which will still give us one sided matches and the same counties emerging to contest the latter stages... even the Super 8s have given us some one sided and dead rubber matches. Some Leinster matches not involving Dublin are as keenly contested as any games in Connacht /Ulster.
Agree with those saying the provincial council view their games as a means of earning revenue and are likely to resist change but some players see them as their only opportunity to win something at championship level. Despite all this we need to address the lob sided nature of both the Leinster and Munster championship and find some imaginative solution to make them more meaningful or do as the OP suggests and get rid of them altogether.

Curlew66 (Roscommon) - Posts: 504 - 08/10/2019 23:59:49    2242229

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Replying To Curlew66:  "In this decade Dublin and Kerry have each won nine provincial titles and eight All Ireland's between them. They will probably share the majority of All Ireland titles between them in the coming decade as well but we won't be scrapping the All Ireland championship as a result of this dominance. An Ulster or Connacht medal still has some currency and is a valued acknowledgement or consolation in an era where the big prize is out of reach for all but a few counties. I have met some provincial winning footballers from Roscommon, Sligo, Leitrim,Clare, Cavan, Monaghan, Laois and Westmeath and they are all cherish their medals. This consolation will not exist if we go for a straight knock out or Championship league format which will still give us one sided matches and the same counties emerging to contest the latter stages... even the Super 8s have given us some one sided and dead rubber matches. Some Leinster matches not involving Dublin are as keenly contested as any games in Connacht /Ulster.
Agree with those saying the provincial council view their games as a means of earning revenue and are likely to resist change but some players see them as their only opportunity to win something at championship level. Despite all this we need to address the lob sided nature of both the Leinster and Munster championship and find some imaginative solution to make them more meaningful or do as the OP suggests and get rid of them altogether."
Those are some good points.

I've felt that the championship could be improved by having Provincials incorporated into a more fair championship.

So every team plays 4 qualifying games to include their Provincial games up to and including the Provincial semifinals. They then play interprovincial games to make up the rest of their fixtures:

Round 1 Leinster and Ulster preliminary rounds for 8 teams. Other 24 teams play interprovincial ties.

Round 2 Provincial quarterfinals for 24 teams, 8 teams (4 byes in Munster/Connacht and losing preliminary teams) play interprovincial ties.

Round 3 16 teams eliminated from their Province are drawn against a Provincial semifinalist.

Round 4 Provincial semifinals. 16 teams eliminated from Provincial championship play interprovincial ties.

After round 4 the 8 Provincial finalists plus 12 best other teams progress to 2 more rounds to include the Provincial finals.

After round 6 we are left with 12 teams in the All Knockout series. With 4 teams having earned a bye to the quarterfinals but it's the 4 teams with the best record.

Season retains provincials but is more fair.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4211 - 09/10/2019 10:28:06    2242271

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Replying To Breezy:  "Was a pretty big crowd running on to the pitch in PngG to celebrate winning MHC. Attendance wise it's still a very popular final too.

Yes we would trade it for an All Ireland win but that's going on the assumption that coming 3rd in Munster this year would have definitely meant winning the AI and ignoring the fact that Cork came 3rd and KK beat them same as us.

As for football weather they stay provincial or go open draw most sports seem to agree that the best formula is group then knockout"
we won the two before that and there was a huge crowd at them too. However, ask many in Cork and we would gladly trade the three Munsters won this decade with Clare's one All-Ireland (Clare have no munster won). It is a grand competition but everybody sets out to win the All-Ireland - qualifying from Munster is relevant, winning it is not. You could keep it or scrap it.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 09/10/2019 11:42:22    2242299

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