National Forum

April 2019 Or April 2020 Promotion To Earn Qualifier Spot?

(Oldest Posts First)

If the Tier 2 Championship is approved at Congress, should the Division 3 finalists of April 2019 qualify for the qualifiers or the Division 3 finalists of April 2020? If the Tier 2 Championship is approved, counties will have to vote on this.

I imagine giving the Division 3 finalists of 2020 qualifier spots will make Divisions 2 and Divisions 3 more interesting in the active current year.

An article by the national broadcaster suggests the Tier 2 winner will be guaranteed a qualifier spot in the following year. I imagine that's a crucial carrot to offer Tier 2 Championship teams.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6261 - 05/10/2019 13:10:51    2241482

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https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/1004/1081156-tier-2-proposal-a-case-of-much-done-more-to-do/

This article is very good actually.

It appears there's buy in from players for a tier 2 championship but not the proposal put forward.

Hopefully it is shot down and something better put in place instead.

The fixtures committee should be left to finish its work.


https://www.rte.ie/amp/1078982/

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 2798 - 05/10/2019 14:34:56    2241486

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Replying To Whammo86:  "https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/1004/1081156-tier-2-proposal-a-case-of-much-done-more-to-do/

This article is very good actually.

It appears there's buy in from players for a tier 2 championship but not the proposal put forward.

Hopefully it is shot down and something better put in place instead.

The fixtures committee should be left to finish its work.


https://www.rte.ie/amp/1078982/"
Whatever system they pick someone will complain.

If they use the 2019 teams then whoever gets promoted up to Div 2 next year will say 'we're now a Div 2 side so should be in the qualifiers'. If they use the 2020 teams then whoever gets relegated to Div 3 next year will say 'we were a Div 2 side all year so should be in the qualifiers'.

It's a mad system anyway, the Tommy Murphy Cup version 2.0 - teams won't be interested I reckon.

M Lyster (Antrim) - Posts: 404 - 05/10/2019 19:49:10    2241524

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Replying To legendzxix:  "If the Tier 2 Championship is approved at Congress, should the Division 3 finalists of April 2019 qualify for the qualifiers or the Division 3 finalists of April 2020? If the Tier 2 Championship is approved, counties will have to vote on this.

I imagine giving the Division 3 finalists of 2020 qualifier spots will make Divisions 2 and Divisions 3 more interesting in the active current year.

An article by the national broadcaster suggests the Tier 2 winner will be guaranteed a qualifier spot in the following year. I imagine that's a crucial carrot to offer Tier 2 Championship teams."
Motion 2 for the special congress gives two options:

OPTION 1.
"Tier 1 - The composition of the respective Divisions of the National League referred to in (a),
(b) and (c) above shall be on the basis of the composition of these Divisions of the National
League as played in the Competition Year."
"Tier 2 - The composition of the respective Divisions of the National League referred to above
shall be on the basis of the composition of these Divisions of the National League as played in
the Competition Year.

OPTION 2
.
"Tier 1 - The composition of the respective Divisions of the National League referred to in (a),
(b) and (c) above shall be on the basis of the composition of these Divisions as determined for
the National League of the following year on the basis of the outcomes of the National League,
including those of Promotion and Relegation, of the Competition Year."
"Tier - 2 The composition of the respective Divisions of the National League referred to above
shall be on the basis of the composition of these Divisions as determined for the National
League of the following year on the basis of the outcomes of the National League, including
those of Promotion and Relegation, of the Competition Year."

My preference would be Option 2 i.e. the tiers for the championship of 2020 would be determined by the 2021 league divisions. Otherwise, with Option 1, there could be a scenario in which a team, say Cork, wins promotion from Division 3 in 2020 but can't participate in Tier 1 that year (assuming they don't get to the Munster final) and so have to take part in the Tier 2 championship, with no incentive to win it as they're guaranteed a place in Tier 1 anyway in 2021 via the league.

CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 51 - 05/10/2019 23:08:07    2241547

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There are two oddities about the structure proposed.

(1) There's no automatic place for the All Ireland winners in the following year's Tier 1. So, although it's unlikely to happen, say a team finishing mid-table in Division 3 team won their provincial championship and then the All Ireland next year (e.g. Down) but then in 2021 they failed to get promotion from Division 3 and didn't reach the Ulster final, then they wouldn't be eligible for Tier 1 that year even though they're champions.

(2) The number of teams can vary from year to year in Tiers 1 and 2, depending on whether or not teams from the lower divisions get to their provincial finals, So, in the most extreme example (even though highly unlikely) there could be 25 teams in Tier 1 (16 Division 1 and 2 teams + 8 provincial finalists [if all finalists came from Divisions 3 and 4] + the previous year's Tier 2 winners [if they still hadn't been promoted from Division 3]) and only 7 teams in Tier 2.

CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 51 - 05/10/2019 23:33:22    2241550

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My head hurts reading these proposals :-) For what it's worth 16 teams is too many for a secondary competition. If they insist on this proposal then Div 2 teams should remain in the higher competitions for the duration of that year regardless if they're relegated or not.

By condeming the two relegated teams to that years secondary Championship competition you're punishing teams for playing at a higher level. For a number of counties achieving top 2 in Div 3 would be much easier than avoiding bottom two in Div 2. The standard of the leagues are significantly different so it's needs to be a year round entry point.

However I can't see these proposals getting passed on the current numbers. The motivation of the GAA is to get as close as possible to the top 10 teams playing each other throughout the summer hence why they're proposing a 16 team secondary competition - the motivation is not to help weaker counties but to increase media and sponsorship contracts at the top of the game.

If a secondary Championship is to be passed at some stage it won't include anymore than 12 counties - halfway down Div 3 and Div 4. With 16 there are too many counties in the "grey area" who could easily find themselves playing the secondary competition who won't want to take that risk.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 527 - 07/10/2019 12:10:22    2241772

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Replying To sam1884:  "My head hurts reading these proposals :-) For what it's worth 16 teams is too many for a secondary competition. If they insist on this proposal then Div 2 teams should remain in the higher competitions for the duration of that year regardless if they're relegated or not.

By condeming the two relegated teams to that years secondary Championship competition you're punishing teams for playing at a higher level. For a number of counties achieving top 2 in Div 3 would be much easier than avoiding bottom two in Div 2. The standard of the leagues are significantly different so it's needs to be a year round entry point.

However I can't see these proposals getting passed on the current numbers. The motivation of the GAA is to get as close as possible to the top 10 teams playing each other throughout the summer hence why they're proposing a 16 team secondary competition - the motivation is not to help weaker counties but to increase media and sponsorship contracts at the top of the game.

If a secondary Championship is to be passed at some stage it won't include anymore than 12 counties - halfway down Div 3 and Div 4. With 16 there are too many counties in the "grey area" who could easily find themselves playing the secondary competition who won't want to take that risk."
I agree the GAA's proposals are convoluted.

I disagree that their should be less than 16 teams in the 2nd tier.

The most natural split for a 2 tier competition is to split down the middle.

Once you start decreasing the number of teams I think the impression becomes that it's a losers competition. It's a case of teams are being excluded from the top championship rather than their just being 2 divisions in the competition.

A simple and strong structure would be 2 championships of 16 teams.

4 groups of 4 in each tier.

Top 2 in each to the quarterfinals. Group winners get a home quarter final.

Relegation and promotion is determined by the championship and not the league.

2 or maybe even 3 up and down between the tiers.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 2798 - 07/10/2019 12:47:48    2241791

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I agree the GAA's proposals are convoluted.

I disagree that their should be less than 16 teams in the 2nd tier.

The most natural split for a 2 tier competition is to split down the middle.

Once you start decreasing the number of teams I think the impression becomes that it's a losers competition. It's a case of teams are being excluded from the top championship rather than their just being 2 divisions in the competition.

A simple and strong structure would be 2 championships of 16 teams.

4 groups of 4 in each tier.

Top 2 in each to the quarterfinals. Group winners get a home quarter final.

Relegation and promotion is determined by the championship and not the league.

2 or maybe even 3 up and down between the tiers."
I can see the logic in your argument and the reasons for splitting it down the middle. Unless the GAA lean and get international delegates onside (which is possible) I can't see how they'd get a two thirds majority for a 16 team secondary competition.

Without suggesting counties are arrogant what would motivate a county like Down with 5 All Ireland's and a rich history to vote for a system that in all likihood condemns them to a secondary competition?! The problem for Down is they wouldn't have the comfort of the Munster Championship to save them.

The 16 team competition may have it's merit however it leaves too many traditional, successful and well supported counties who are trying to progress at significant risk. If they fall to the bottom 12 in the country then they can have no arguments but 16 teams is too many.

A competition that genuinely gives weaker counties a chance to progress may have it's merits but it shouldn't be dragging counties who are around the competitive 9th to 18th bracket with them. The counties in that bracket are doing good work and there is usually only a few points between them in games but there is a risk of them falling to Div 3 due to the competitive nature.

They are also well ahead in terms of structures and preparation of the bottom 12 but if they're made play Div 4 standard games these counties could genuinely suffer and GAA locally could be affected.

Counties in Div 4 need help I agree but not by undoing genuine efforts of other counties.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 527 - 07/10/2019 13:49:38    2241827

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Replying To sam1884:  "I can see the logic in your argument and the reasons for splitting it down the middle. Unless the GAA lean and get international delegates onside (which is possible) I can't see how they'd get a two thirds majority for a 16 team secondary competition.

Without suggesting counties are arrogant what would motivate a county like Down with 5 All Ireland's and a rich history to vote for a system that in all likihood condemns them to a secondary competition?! The problem for Down is they wouldn't have the comfort of the Munster Championship to save them.

The 16 team competition may have it's merit however it leaves too many traditional, successful and well supported counties who are trying to progress at significant risk. If they fall to the bottom 12 in the country then they can have no arguments but 16 teams is too many.

A competition that genuinely gives weaker counties a chance to progress may have it's merits but it shouldn't be dragging counties who are around the competitive 9th to 18th bracket with them. The counties in that bracket are doing good work and there is usually only a few points between them in games but there is a risk of them falling to Div 3 due to the competitive nature.

They are also well ahead in terms of structures and preparation of the bottom 12 but if they're made play Div 4 standard games these counties could genuinely suffer and GAA locally could be affected.

Counties in Div 4 need help I agree but not by undoing genuine efforts of other counties."
Those are all fair points.

What I'd say though is there's a lot of effort still going into the game in the lowest 12 ranked teams.

Carlow, Leitrim aren't messing around how they treat their football, they just have limited playing resources and you wouldn't want to cut them off.

I also worry about the motivations behind the timing of the lower tiers in each code.

The GAA actively want them finished early. Is that because some county boards want to get their club commitments finished in their weaker code quickly without impacting upon the competitions in their more popular code.

Will those change lead to effectively single code counties.

In my opinion that trend is something that is completely at odds with the GAA's mission to promote Gaelic games.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 2798 - 08/10/2019 18:34:03    2242137

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I think 16 is too many for Tier 2. Division 4 teams would see 8 as too few. I would be in favour of a compromise of 12.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6261 - 10/10/2019 11:20:06    2242529

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