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Replying To arock: ""but money pays for the multiple of qualified youth coaches now plying their trades across Dublin, it pays for the strength and conditioning programmes, the skills coaches, the nutritionist and dieticians, the psychologists and physiotherapists all of which help raw talents deliver fully on their potential"
Apart from the FACT this applies to every county, I don't know who these Youth Coaches are, you mean the ones paid for by the clubs/county board? You see i drive a lot around the country and what really amazes me is the amount of GAA clubs outside the capitol with superb facilites. So Dublin invests its money and capitol in participation and quality participation at that at all levels, it seems to me other counties place far greater emphasis and importance on capitol projects. Centres of excellence with tumbleweed swirling around them (we can all exaggerate to make a point no?), millions spent on stadiums with no games for them, beautiful clubhouses, manicured pitches with no teams to fill them. Maybe, just maybe counties will take a long hard look at themselves and say "we got this gig all wrong". Dublin have done at Inter-county level what Slaughtneil have at club level. The template is there, it is proven, but you have no bodies to invest in so you invest in grass and concrete, you have no desire to do the hard work. Most of the better coaches in Dublin BTW are country folk. Maybe this is why no one in Dublin takes anything you have to say seriously." Now I was going to respond to your post seriously but then I re-read it and saw that ludicrous guff that I've noticed plenty of Dubs throwing out to again deflect - that other counties 'have no desire to do the hard work'.
I mean do you seriously believe that - do you seriously believe that in Dublin the youth coaches, development officers, club delegates, county board reps, fellas washing the jerseys are some breed of superhuman and that no other county has GAA people as diligent, hard working, intelligent or resourceful as in the Capital?
Could it just be that having access to greater finances makes things a lot easier?! Plans are great but without the money behind them what use are they?
Dublin are given bucket loads because for a long time the GAA HQ, in their short-tern vision, saw the Capital as giving the biggest and fastest return on that investment - more participation, more success, leading to bigger crowds, big tv audiences, lots of new jerseys on kids.
Will they now do the same for a Longford or even for Antrim where its reported there's only a 4% participation rate in the GAA in Belfast - this islands second largest urban centre? Of course not because what moentary return will it get them?
As a business model it makes perfect sense whats going on, except that the GAA isn't a business its our national game and this tears out the heart of its very ethos!
But yeah the rest of us simply aren't working hard enough ;)
TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 03/07/2019 22:33:45
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Being honest part of what makes me uncomfortable about the model Dublin have used to grow the game there is when we hear about 'super clubs' covering an enormous population area who have huge numbers of teams/ players. I would have liked the idea had lots of new clubs being formed instead. The clubs would be more associated with smaller areas and closer to their communities then, I think this is closer to what the ethos of the GAA is susposed to be about. Its happening in other counties to a lesser extent but unfortunately is probably the way the GAA is going to go in the future.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1345 - 03/07/2019 22:38:20
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Replying To bdbuddah: "A Dublin man questioning the value of Kerry having won the no. of All Ireland's they have is laughable. Dublin had won 15 All Irelands before Dublin first won one with a native team in the 1950's (http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/captain-s-log-the-voyage-that-foundered-before-dublin-discovered-route-forward-1.2357113%3fmode=amp and
www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/dublin-became-a-football-force-after-the-team-went-only-dubs-need-apply-31536699.html).
Ye won loads shortly after the GAA was founded when clubs were representing counties and many inter county teams competitions were barely organised (6 won before the turn of the 20'th century, another 5 in the first decade of the 20'th century)." I see that went down well.
Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 03/07/2019 23:06:49
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Replying To TheHermit: "Now I was going to respond to your post seriously but then I re-read it and saw that ludicrous guff that I've noticed plenty of Dubs throwing out to again deflect - that other counties 'have no desire to do the hard work'.
I mean do you seriously believe that - do you seriously believe that in Dublin the youth coaches, development officers, club delegates, county board reps, fellas washing the jerseys are some breed of superhuman and that no other county has GAA people as diligent, hard working, intelligent or resourceful as in the Capital?
Could it just be that having access to greater finances makes things a lot easier?! Plans are great but without the money behind them what use are they?
Dublin are given bucket loads because for a long time the GAA HQ, in their short-tern vision, saw the Capital as giving the biggest and fastest return on that investment - more participation, more success, leading to bigger crowds, big tv audiences, lots of new jerseys on kids.
Will they now do the same for a Longford or even for Antrim where its reported there's only a 4% participation rate in the GAA in Belfast - this islands second largest urban centre? Of course not because what moentary return will it get them?
As a business model it makes perfect sense whats going on, except that the GAA isn't a business its our national game and this tears out the heart of its very ethos!
But yeah the rest of us simply aren't working hard enough ;)" 37 All Irelands , 81 Munsters , yea right your lot aint working hard enough , cute Kerry Hoorism -:)
superbluedub (Dublin) - Posts: 2837 - 03/07/2019 23:35:32
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Portlaoise Is a good example of what happens at club level when a big town dominates the club scene within a county. Massive fiscal resources and population relative to its neighbouring towns and villages.
My point is that this is not a situation unique to Dublin gaa. I am not saying that it is right, but it happens around the country almost inevitably.
Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 03/07/2019 23:36:58
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Replying To TheUsername: "I see Horan, referencing population per head in relation to the GAA funding model, perhaps my population to GDF model isnt as wide of the mark as i acknowledged and is indeed used by the GAA however loosely.
That model gives us this breakdown of GDF, per head of population:
Monaghan GDF 124.000, Population of Monaghan 60.483 = 2.05 per head.
Dublin GDF 1.3 mill, population 1.34 mill, ratio = 97 cent per head.
Kerry GDF 197.600 euro, population of Kerry 147.000, ratio = 1.34 euro per head.
Mayo GDF 134.29 euro, population of Mayo, 130.5k, ratio = 1.02 euro per head.
Tyrone GDF 119.000 euro, population 177.9k = 66 cent per head
Galway GDF 184.4k euro, population 258.0k = 71cent per head.
Donegal GDF 130.2k euro, population 159.1k = 81 cent per head.
Kildare GDF 341.3k euro, population 222.5k = 1.53 euro per head
Roscommon GDF, 146k euro, population 66.5k = 2.2 euro per head.
Cork GDF, 249k euro, population 542k = 45 cent per head.
Meath GDF, 367.4k, population 195.0 = 1.88 euro per head." That's interesting stuff. Tells it's own story.
CornAghais91 (Dublin) - Posts: 126 - 03/07/2019 23:40:55
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Replying To TheHermit: "Now I was going to respond to your post seriously but then I re-read it and saw that ludicrous guff that I've noticed plenty of Dubs throwing out to again deflect - that other counties 'have no desire to do the hard work'.
I mean do you seriously believe that - do you seriously believe that in Dublin the youth coaches, development officers, club delegates, county board reps, fellas washing the jerseys are some breed of superhuman and that no other county has GAA people as diligent, hard working, intelligent or resourceful as in the Capital?
Could it just be that having access to greater finances makes things a lot easier?! Plans are great but without the money behind them what use are they?
Dublin are given bucket loads because for a long time the GAA HQ, in their short-tern vision, saw the Capital as giving the biggest and fastest return on that investment - more participation, more success, leading to bigger crowds, big tv audiences, lots of new jerseys on kids.
Will they now do the same for a Longford or even for Antrim where its reported there's only a 4% participation rate in the GAA in Belfast - this islands second largest urban centre? Of course not because what moentary return will it get them?
As a business model it makes perfect sense whats going on, except that the GAA isn't a business its our national game and this tears out the heart of its very ethos!
But yeah the rest of us simply aren't working hard enough ;)" That post is exaggerated generalised nonsense. The comparison to Slaughtneil is delusional stuff altogether.
I simply do not see all this waste he is talking about either, virtually all capital projects are part aided under the sports capital scheme, competition for the funding is fierce and they won't approve a project unless the usage is suitably intensive. He is talking out his hat. If this profligate capital spending is so commonplace I'd love to hear a few examples.
GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 04/07/2019 00:53:44
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Replying To superbluedub: "Why so bitter ? -:)" I'm not bitter, I hate seeing Dublin posters on this thread trotting lazy lines like 'Kerry have only won the no. of All Irelands because they are in an easy Provence', well then let's examine how Dublin got their large no. of All Irelands.
Then talking like what Dublin are doing is a follow on from their earlier dominance. This is not the case, an actual proper Dublin team (ie. a team of players from Dublin) have never dominated in anything like what we see now, this era is something different, if we are going to have a debate you need to ground it in reality.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1345 - 04/07/2019 01:21:39
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Having read the figures in the papers yesterday, I'm shocked. Those figures are ridiculous. €18 million to Dublin and Cork as the nearest beneficiaries with 1.4 million. I only recently found out about Bertie Ahern's secret grants of another €10 million or thereabouts. That's almost €30 million you're talking about before sponsorship!
I have no interest in football thankfully but Dublin are actually failing miserably. They should have won 5 or 6 hurling AI's with sort of backing in the past decade.
When you see the attendance at the Leinster final falling to 40k with the game on in Dublin, you know people are losing interest, even the Dubs. I live in Swords and my neighbour who used to never miss a Dublin game said he couldn't be bothered going anymore, doesn't celebrate the wins anymore. And he's right, the funding started in 2007, it's no coincidence that Dublin started to win after this.
I don't think many people take it seriously, most wouldn't count them as genuine All Irelands.
LimerickKid84 (Limerick) - Posts: 28 - 04/07/2019 08:25:45
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Replying To DUBJOHN: "Great post!" Actually not a great post at all. But one which several Dublin supporters wish to put forward to defend the funding levels received. I've seen very many of Dublin GAA club facilities over the years and any number of them are better than what any of the County champions in Donegal would have i.e. compare the facilities of established clubs in Dublin with those in Donegal. But Dublin folk prefer to trot out and point to the facilities of newly established clubs - and say they have very little. How could they have when they've only emerged in recent times (rather than being 30, 50 or perhaps more years old like established clubs in all counties including Dublin). But no, point to the new clubs many of which will have emerged due to (at least partially due to) the money pumped into increase participation rates in Dublin - and then all to feed into one county team. And of course in a few years time once the new clubs are established switch the money to facilities and capital expenditure - because we must provide these for our members. And at the end of it all you have huge additional numbers of participants, newly established clubs and with modern facilities.
Your argument and post fool no one.
The only fool recently was John Horan - "I must get someone to look into this". Oh, yes, an afterthought. If he was in charge of a business and had to retrospectively determine or conduct the analysis of a major theme or issue in his business he would be shown the road.
The GAA should pump money into Antrim (they would be afraid of a Northern team being so strong) or Offaly - surely Offaly's decline is greater than what Dublin experienced, but no double standards.
Furthermore they should establish facilities and structures for other counties with populations based in Dublin. And non-Dublin GAA members residing in our capital should withdraw their (1) Time, (2) Children and (3) Financial Contribution from Dublin clubs which ultimately albeit indirectly benefits the Dublin county teams at the expense of others.
DonegalAtlantic (Donegal) - Posts: 111 - 04/07/2019 08:29:59
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Replying To Donegalman: "Portlaoise Is a good example of what happens at club level when a big town dominates the club scene within a county. Massive fiscal resources and population relative to its neighbouring towns and villages.
My point is that this is not a situation unique to Dublin gaa. I am not saying that it is right, but it happens around the country almost inevitably." interesting point.
avonali (Dublin) - Posts: 1974 - 04/07/2019 09:07:14
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Replying To LimerickKid84: "Having read the figures in the papers yesterday, I'm shocked. Those figures are ridiculous. €18 million to Dublin and Cork as the nearest beneficiaries with 1.4 million. I only recently found out about Bertie Ahern's secret grants of another €10 million or thereabouts. That's almost €30 million you're talking about before sponsorship!
I have no interest in football thankfully but Dublin are actually failing miserably. They should have won 5 or 6 hurling AI's with sort of backing in the past decade.
When you see the attendance at the Leinster final falling to 40k with the game on in Dublin, you know people are losing interest, even the Dubs. I live in Swords and my neighbour who used to never miss a Dublin game said he couldn't be bothered going anymore, doesn't celebrate the wins anymore. And he's right, the funding started in 2007, it's no coincidence that Dublin started to win after this.
I don't think many people take it seriously, most wouldn't count them as genuine All Irelands." Ooooh I wonder who this could be?
Jackeen (Dublin) - Posts: 4097 - 04/07/2019 09:15:57
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Genuine question.
Is there any Dublin supporters who feel the current disparity of funding is fair and reasonable and the level of funding Dublin get along with al, the other advantages is completely fair?
I personally think it's one of the biggest disgraces in modern day GAA but I don't blame Dublin for it, the blame lies squarely and solely at the feet of the GAA.
Just wondering as I've yet to meet a genuine GAA person up and down the country who believes the current situation is in any way fair.
tearintom (Wexford) - Posts: 1336 - 04/07/2019 09:47:47
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Replying To TheUsername: "I see Horan, referencing population per head in relation to the GAA funding model, perhaps my population to GDF model isnt as wide of the mark as i acknowledged and is indeed used by the GAA however loosely.
That model gives us this breakdown of GDF, per head of population:
Monaghan GDF 124.000, Population of Monaghan 60.483 = 2.05 per head.
Dublin GDF 1.3 mill, population 1.34 mill, ratio = 97 cent per head.
Kerry GDF 197.600 euro, population of Kerry 147.000, ratio = 1.34 euro per head.
Mayo GDF 134.29 euro, population of Mayo, 130.5k, ratio = 1.02 euro per head.
Tyrone GDF 119.000 euro, population 177.9k = 66 cent per head
Galway GDF 184.4k euro, population 258.0k = 71cent per head.
Donegal GDF 130.2k euro, population 159.1k = 81 cent per head.
Kildare GDF 341.3k euro, population 222.5k = 1.53 euro per head
Roscommon GDF, 146k euro, population 66.5k = 2.2 euro per head.
Cork GDF, 249k euro, population 542k = 45 cent per head.
Meath GDF, 367.4k, population 195.0 = 1.88 euro per head." So if you base the funding on population then in Dublin your funding also includes the large Leinster rugby population which make little sense. The funding should be based on number of clubs and membership which would leave Cork on top of the funding list (Antrim would do very well also). Extra funding could then be provided for certain areas of the country where special circumstances exist. Now I am not trying to take away from Dublin success as you could put millions into some counties and still never get 4 in a row. You do not need to be a mathematical genius to see the obvious skew in funding-how long will it continue?
browncows (Meath) - Posts: 2342 - 04/07/2019 09:50:24
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Dublin started playing their league games in Croke Park marketed as the Spring Series to fend off the growing support for Leinster Rugby.
Munster, Connaught and Ulster rugby have professional status to compete with Leinster. Rural GAA counties do not.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7840 - 04/07/2019 10:16:41
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Replying To tearintom: "Genuine question.
Is there any Dublin supporters who feel the current disparity of funding is fair and reasonable and the level of funding Dublin get along with al, the other advantages is completely fair?
I personally think it's one of the biggest disgraces in modern day GAA but I don't blame Dublin for it, the blame lies squarely and solely at the feet of the GAA.
Just wondering as I've yet to meet a genuine GAA person up and down the country who believes the current situation is in any way fair." It wasn't just GAA hq, there was political interference by a certain Taoiseach from 1995 that deliberately skewed things in Dublin's favour. We all know this, he even boasted about it, you can read it on the web! As for expecting the privileged Pale to appreciate the fate of others, you're wasting your time!
baire (Galway) - Posts: 1791 - 04/07/2019 10:29:29
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Replying To browncows: " Replying To TheUsername: "I see Horan, referencing population per head in relation to the GAA funding model, perhaps my population to GDF model isnt as wide of the mark as i acknowledged and is indeed used by the GAA however loosely.
That model gives us this breakdown of GDF, per head of population:
Monaghan GDF 124.000, Population of Monaghan 60.483 = 2.05 per head.
Dublin GDF 1.3 mill, population 1.34 mill, ratio = 97 cent per head.
Kerry GDF 197.600 euro, population of Kerry 147.000, ratio = 1.34 euro per head.
Mayo GDF 134.29 euro, population of Mayo, 130.5k, ratio = 1.02 euro per head.
Tyrone GDF 119.000 euro, population 177.9k = 66 cent per head
Galway GDF 184.4k euro, population 258.0k = 71cent per head.
Donegal GDF 130.2k euro, population 159.1k = 81 cent per head.
Kildare GDF 341.3k euro, population 222.5k = 1.53 euro per head
Roscommon GDF, 146k euro, population 66.5k = 2.2 euro per head.
Cork GDF, 249k euro, population 542k = 45 cent per head.
Meath GDF, 367.4k, population 195.0 = 1.88 euro per head." So if you base the funding on population then in Dublin your funding also includes the large Leinster rugby population which make little sense. The funding should be based on number of clubs and membership which would leave Cork on top of the funding list (Antrim would do very well also). Extra funding could then be provided for certain areas of the country where special circumstances exist. Now I am not trying to take away from Dublin success as you could put millions into some counties and still never get 4 in a row. You do not need to be a mathematical genius to see the obvious skew in funding-how long will it continue?"
There is much cross fertilization between the sports, Crokes in particular have lost some handy players who have gone in to represent Ireland at Rugby, Ian Madigan was an excellent GAA player, Brian O Driscoll was top draw at football too hes a big Dubs fan. Brian Howard was also in the Leinster academy for years. I can also tell you that Devon Toner was no stranger to game of football either. So in summary im not sure you can screen certain parts of the population because they may play a number sports or playing two sports has to be exclusive in funding. I heard David Cliffard was a handy soccer player, did he not deserve development funding because he may have played football and soccer. Its a bit silly really objectively.
I also disagree with the premise of GDF being club based, it means smaller counties being hit massively finanically really. My own opinion and i believe the spirit behind GDF is to increase participation and attract players toward joining a club, not to fund those already who are members, that defeats the whole purpose really, i think counties who do this may be in trouble in all honesty, unless clubs and county board want to fund part of that themselves and create a synergy.
I do think you have to be a bit astute on this topic and do some very detailed research in to the finance or models of this debate, you also cant view Dublin in isolation and have a good understanding of the GAA disparate financing broadly, its not as simple as saying Dublin get 18 mill and walk away, everything exists in a context, as you can see my figures offer a different slant on the argument and you should be quite happy with Meath doing very well, thats before the additional funding of the east Leinster project kicking in and i didnt take into account the provincial grant allocation everyone get accept Dublin, so really the figures are other county friendly on allocated GDF.
If you look at my figures funding per head, you will see the most well funded counties have had recent success at underage relatively: Kerry, Mongahan, Meath did brilliantly at minor last year and Kildare won the U20 last year, its a curious tangent.
What did you make Horans comments on Meath funding yesterday?
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 04/07/2019 10:51:22
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Replying To browncows: " Replying To TheUsername: "I see Horan, referencing population per head in relation to the GAA funding model, perhaps my population to GDF model isnt as wide of the mark as i acknowledged and is indeed used by the GAA however loosely.
That model gives us this breakdown of GDF, per head of population:
Monaghan GDF 124.000, Population of Monaghan 60.483 = 2.05 per head.
Dublin GDF 1.3 mill, population 1.34 mill, ratio = 97 cent per head.
Kerry GDF 197.600 euro, population of Kerry 147.000, ratio = 1.34 euro per head.
Mayo GDF 134.29 euro, population of Mayo, 130.5k, ratio = 1.02 euro per head.
Tyrone GDF 119.000 euro, population 177.9k = 66 cent per head
Galway GDF 184.4k euro, population 258.0k = 71cent per head.
Donegal GDF 130.2k euro, population 159.1k = 81 cent per head.
Kildare GDF 341.3k euro, population 222.5k = 1.53 euro per head
Roscommon GDF, 146k euro, population 66.5k = 2.2 euro per head.
Cork GDF, 249k euro, population 542k = 45 cent per head.
Meath GDF, 367.4k, population 195.0 = 1.88 euro per head." So if you base the funding on population then in Dublin your funding also includes the large Leinster rugby population which make little sense. The funding should be based on number of clubs and membership which would leave Cork on top of the funding list (Antrim would do very well also). Extra funding could then be provided for certain areas of the country where special circumstances exist. Now I am not trying to take away from Dublin success as you could put millions into some counties and still never get 4 in a row. You do not need to be a mathematical genius to see the obvious skew in funding-how long will it continue?"
If you are going to accumlate the finance its only fair to accumlate the population its going into:
So 1.34million by 12years gives us a total population of 16.14 million.
So 18million in GDF over 12 years into a populaiton of 16.14 million = 1.11 cent per head average.
Not bad, but from my figures its still a way off, some other counties.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 04/07/2019 11:01:33
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Replying To DonegalAtlantic: "Actually not a great post at all. But one which several Dublin supporters wish to put forward to defend the funding levels received. I've seen very many of Dublin GAA club facilities over the years and any number of them are better than what any of the County champions in Donegal would have i.e. compare the facilities of established clubs in Dublin with those in Donegal. But Dublin folk prefer to trot out and point to the facilities of newly established clubs - and say they have very little. How could they have when they've only emerged in recent times (rather than being 30, 50 or perhaps more years old like established clubs in all counties including Dublin). But no, point to the new clubs many of which will have emerged due to (at least partially due to) the money pumped into increase participation rates in Dublin - and then all to feed into one county team. And of course in a few years time once the new clubs are established switch the money to facilities and capital expenditure - because we must provide these for our members. And at the end of it all you have huge additional numbers of participants, newly established clubs and with modern facilities.
Your argument and post fool no one.
The only fool recently was John Horan - "I must get someone to look into this". Oh, yes, an afterthought. If he was in charge of a business and had to retrospectively determine or conduct the analysis of a major theme or issue in his business he would be shown the road.
The GAA should pump money into Antrim (they would be afraid of a Northern team being so strong) or Offaly - surely Offaly's decline is greater than what Dublin experienced, but no double standards.
Furthermore they should establish facilities and structures for other counties with populations based in Dublin. And non-Dublin GAA members residing in our capital should withdraw their (1) Time, (2) Children and (3) Financial Contribution from Dublin clubs which ultimately albeit indirectly benefits the Dublin county teams at the expense of others." And non-Dublin GAA members residing in our capital should withdraw their (1) Time, (2) Children and (3) Financial Contribution from Dublin clubs which ultimately albeit indirectly benefits the Dublin county teams at the expense of others.
Ah here, such a nuclear suggestion is a huge overreaction. You suggest non-Dublin GAA members residing in our capital should withdraw their:
(1) Time - my dad is not from Dublin but played club hurling for Na Fianna. He also mentored there off his own bat. He openly admits he really enjoyed both. Should he have not contributed?
(2) Children - should he have said to me and my siblings - "sorry kids, you can't play gaelic and hurling with your pals cos of GAA HQ funding"? Should my neighbours from Cork and Kerry withdraw their kids from the local clubs citing the same reasons?
(3) Financial Contribution - probably linked to 1 and 2 above but if you play for a club, you pay subs - that's always been the way of it. Should they say "we're still going to enjoy the facilities of the club but not pay our due share just because we weren't born in the county"?
Kurt_Angle (Dublin) - Posts: 567 - 04/07/2019 11:03:57
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Replying To baire: "It wasn't just GAA hq, there was political interference by a certain Taoiseach from 1995 that deliberately skewed things in Dublin's favour. We all know this, he even boasted about it, you can read it on the web! As for expecting the privileged Pale to appreciate the fate of others, you're wasting your time!" Was the political interference sought?
Dublin seem to have had free reign in getting more and more advantages.
Businesses follow the money. The GAA were shrewd to build Croke Park with premium and corporate levels.
While the GAA were not initially on board Dublin GAA plans, when they saw the financial advantages they were happy to get on board.
They have built a runaway train without any opposition.
Other factors like fending off Leinster Rugby and bringing a Spring Series to Croke Park have added more layers of advantages.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7840 - 04/07/2019 11:03:59
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