Given the change in GPA player sentiment toward a 'Tier 2 AI SFC', I present a few points below.

In 2018, the AI SHC round robin proved very popular, especially as Munster was highly competitive.  The inclusion of an initial group phase guaranteed all teams a minimum of 4 games before the concluding KO stage.  This should be preferable to a group phase that is played later on, as in the 'elitist' AI SFC's Super 8.

I suggest an 'amended version' of the GPA's prior 8x4 group phase idea - to pair up teams of more similar quality, and in particular, to avoid 'Divs 1 v 4' mismatches.

I recommend the following:
-  1) Divide 32 teams to 4 seeded pots, 1-4.
-  2) Draw a 'PAIR of 1 and 2 seeds' to form 4 Tier 1 pools (A1, A2, B1, B2);  and a 'PAIR of 3 and 4 seeds' to form 4 Tier 2 pools (C1, C2, D1, D2).
-  3) Teams play 4 'group' matches (i.e. inter-pool A1vA2, B1vB2, C1vC2 and D1vD2), against '1 upper & 1 lower seed' both at home & away.
-  4) Schedule the 4 rounds over 5 weeks with a 'middle break/bye round', starting Tier 2 two weeks earlier to ensure matches are played each week, even when the other Tier is having its bye week. 

-  5a) After 4 matches per team - 
Top 4 in each 8-team group (C & D) advance to Tier 2 KO QFs (C1st hosts D4th, C2nd hosts D3rd etc) -  
1st SF has [(C1st or D4th) v (D2nd or C3rd) - best group record hosts each SF and Final]- 
and after 3 KO rds, the Champ and losing Finalist advance (like McDonagh Cup) to the 'Tier 1 AI KO Series' (as 2nd lowest and lowest seeds, respectively).
-  5b) Also - Top 5 in each 8-team group (A & B) advance to the 'Tier 1 AI KO Series' (as seeds A1st to A5th and B1st to B5th).
-  5c) Finally - The KO Prov SFCs are retained and played separately - 4 Prov Champs also advance to the 'Tier 1 KO Series' [A1st to B5th Prov Champs earn byes to AI QFs;  A6th to B8th and C1st to D8th Champs (excl Tier 2 Finalists) earn a Tier 1 AI 'Playoff QF Rd' berth instead].

-  6) 'Tier 1 AI KO Series' has, at most, a field of 16 teams (10+4+2) - however, if one to four teams advance twice (as is most likely), the field reduces to between 12 and 16 teams.
Pairings target 'inter-group' (A v B v Tier 2) between high/low and 2nd high/2nd low seeds etc in each round.
Tier 2 SF teams are promoted to Tier 1 for the following year, replacing teams A7, A8, B7 and B8.

Would this work ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2582 - 29/10/2018 03:58:28    2148551

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4221 - 29/10/2018 19:27:52    2148635

OMahant no need for overly complex structures. Who does a very complicated competition format benefit?

DonaldDuck (Tipperary) - Posts: 544 - 29/10/2018 20:05:53    2148637

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 29/10/2018 20:50:52    2148646

I would say that my complexity is more due to going into more detail. My plan has similarities with yours -
Tiers 1 and 2 - each with 2 groups of 8 [I split groups into two pools to accomodate 4 games (like actual SHC)/half round robin (you have 7 games)].
I have 4 up/4 down, you have 3/3.
I have Tier 2 Finalists merging like McDonagh teams into Tier 1 KO - you do not.
For Tier 1 KO, I have max 16 teams (2x top 5, 4 Prov Champs, 2 Tier 2 Finalists) - you have 8+4+0.
Starting with 16 different teams allows for 'clean' doubling up - 2 Rd 16 berths = 1 bye to QFs.
How does this work with your 12 - if nobody doubles up, 4 still need byes - if any of those byes win Prov as well, there is no additional benefit - anyway, this is all hypothetical -
Best to merge with NFL to have 12-10-10 over full season to the KO of one competition - like we had some time ago.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2582 - 29/10/2018 21:27:05    2148651

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2582 - 29/10/2018 21:42:07    2148655

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4221 - 29/10/2018 22:11:51    2148658

OK, I agree - less than full round robins doesn't work back in the country I left.

I used to be puzzled when I first emigrated here that there was no link in a 'league' between regular season games and the number of teams - they were independent. But, who wants to kill something that sells for the disfunction of the GAA?

For example, in a given year, a US NFL team plays in a 32-team 'league' with all teams of equal rank - each team plays 3 opponents twice, 10 opponents once and the other 18 go unplayed. In fact, Dallas played Texas-rival Houston a few wseks ago for the 1st time in 4 yrs - it takes 8 yrs for one of them to host the other.

Shara has shown how the so called symmetry of the round robin 'group play' can be exploited - and offered an 'untraditional' schedule to better structure a tournament.

Merging the Irsh NFL, Prov SFC, a handicapped Shara spin and the AI Series - how is this -

1) Irish NFL with tradition 4 divs of 8.
2) Top 5-ranked Div 1 and Bottom 5-ranked Div 2 play conventional 4-game round robins, and in addition, the other 6 teams play these ten teams - so all 16 teams play a 10-game schedule (in lieu of a 15-game full round robin) and are ranked/seeded in a 16-team table.
2) Divs 3 and 4 play a similar 10-match schedule.
3) As before, top 8 of 16 Divs 3/4 play Tier 2 KO QFs (1st hosts 8th, 2nd hosts 7th etc.).
4) Tier 2 Finalists enter the Tier 1 KO Series as well, joining the Tier 1 Top 10 and 4 Prov Champs.
5) Prov Champs already included in the other 12 get a bye to AI QFs instead.
6) Tier 2 SF teams are promoted and replace 13th-16th in Tier 1.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2582 - 30/10/2018 01:04:12    2148670

For an 8-match regular season - have Div 1 v Div 2 (4 home, 4 away) - and do likewise for Div 3 v Div 4.
Again, Top 10 from combined Divs 1/2, Top 8 from combined Divs 3/4 and 4 Prov Champs advance as before for AI Series.

Or, you could keep the 4 divs separate - while teams didn't play 7-match intra-div as usual, each div did play the same 8-match inter-div. The 12 that advance from the divs could be 6-3-2-1 along with the 4 Prov Champs. Have 3 up/3 down.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2582 - 30/10/2018 02:06:24    2148672

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2582 - 30/10/2018 02:42:11    2148673

4 groups of 8 teams. Best 8 in group 1,next best in group 2 etc.

Each team plays 7 games. 2 or 3 at home and at least 1 on neutral.

Bottom two relegated from each group (except group 4 obviously).

Top 4 teams from group 1,top 2 teams from group 2 and top team from 3 and 4 play in AI q final on seeded basis. Ie top of group 1 plays group 4 winner and 4th team in group 1 plays group 2 winner.

Replace the word group with division and you have the structure of the national football league as it was up to 1998 or so.

Scrap championship as you have it now or play it as preseason and effectively you have same number of games as teams played in 1990s. There are more big games between big teams and a defined calendar can be produced which would help club players. There is no uncertainty of back doors or whether you qualify for super 8s or not..

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 30/10/2018 08:10:08    2148676

Or, go with another old NFL div split - 2 divs of 16, with 2 groups of 8 of equal strength in each div.
Here, I would have 1A v 1B and 2A v 2B, leading to the same KO of 5, 5, 4, 4.

Or, 3 groups of 6 in div 1 - with 1A v 1B v 1C - teams play home to one group and away at another - 10 games per team.
In div 2, 2 groups of 7 - 2A v 2B - 7 matches per team. Again, best 10 div 1 and best 8 div 2 to KO.

Or, make it 9v9 equal strength div 1 - best 5 in 1A merge with the 2A winner (that emeges from 2A SFs) in one half of non repeat draw. Top 2 in 1A to QFs and await 2 1st rd 'A winners'.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2582 - 30/10/2018 13:21:58    2148719

Who would not support a McDonagh-style element to the structuring of a lower level initial tournament ?

The GPA initial Champions League idea created 8 similar quality groups placing one seed of each quality in a group - call it 8 x 1234.

Why not have - 4 x 1122 (Tier 1) and 4 x 3344 (Tier 2) instead ?

Tier 2 = 3 conventional group games - top 2 in each (or as I prefer, best 8 of 16) - QFs, SFs, F - winner (as seed 12) to Tier 1 KO 12.

Tier 2 = 6 conventional group games (double rd) - top 2 in each and 3 best 3rds (or best 11 of 16) to Tier 1 KO 12 (4 group winners, seeded 1 to 4, get byes to QFs).
Other 8 (seeded 5-12, based on record) play in QF Playoff Rd.
Playoff pairings = 5 hosts 12, 6 hosts 11, 7 h 10, 8 h 9.
QFs = 1 hosts lowest surviving seed, 2 h 2nd low, 3 h 3rd low, 4 hosts 4th lowest.
SFs = 1st highest surviving seed hosts lowest, 2nd highest h 2nd lowest surviving seed.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2582 - 01/11/2018 02:45:11    2148961

mayotyroneman (Tyrone) - Posts: 1821 - 01/11/2018 08:02:52    2148968

Yes, he is. That knowledge suggests Eire is not that secular after all.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2582 - 01/11/2018 20:45:59    2149178

OK Guys - Something conventional that might attract 'MAJORITY' support - and ALL of you ?

1) 32 teams, 4 seeding pots.
2) Champions League 8x4 groups.
3) Tier 1 4x4 (two 1, two 2 seeds); and
Tier 2 4x4 (two 3, two 4 seeds).
4) Tier 2 plays 3 group matches, top 2 advance to KO QFs, SFs and F - Champ to Tier 1 KO 11.
5) Tier 2 played on weeks 1, 3, 4 and KO 6, 7, 9.

6) Tier 1 plays 6 group matches (Champs L double rd), top 2 and 2 best 3rds to Tier 1 KO 11.
7) Tier 1 KO 11 - 4 group winners and 1 best 2nd (seeded 1-5) to QFs; 5 other tier 1 (seeded 6-10) & Tier 2 Champ (seeded 11) to three 1st rd games.
8) Tier 1 played on weeks 2, 3, 5, 6, 8, 9 and KO 10, 12, 13, 15.

Why not have this Tier 2 with link to Tier 1 ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2582 - 01/11/2018 21:39:13    2149187

Since you liked that one - let's give more games -

1) 32 teams, 5 seeding pots.
2) 1st pot of 8 teams and 4 more pots of 6.
3) Tier 1 2x7 (four 1, three 2 seeds); and
Tier 2 3x6 (two 3, two 4, two 5 seeds).
4) Tier 2 plays 5 group matches, top 2 and 2 best 3rds advance to KO QFs, SFs and F - Champ to Tier 1 KO 9.
5) Tier 2 played on weeks 1, 2, 4, 5, 7 and KO 9, 10, 12.

6) Tier 1 plays 6 group matches, top 4 advance to Tier 1 KO 9.
7) Tier 1 KO 9 - top 3 (seeded 1-6) and best 4th (seeded 7) to QFs; 1 other 4th (seeded 8) hosts Tier 2 Champ (seeded 9) in the only 1st rd game.
8) Tier 1 played on weeks 3, 5, 6, 8, 9, 11, 12 and KO 14, 16, 17, 19.

QFs - 1 hosts 8/9; 4 hosts 5; 2 hosts 7; 3 hosts 6.

Again - why not have this Tier 2 with link to Tier 1 ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2582 - 01/11/2018 22:39:37    2149196

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4221 - 02/11/2018 14:07:58    2149266

Fine - and similar leading to Tier 1 KO 11.

We know:
1) Players want more games = group stage needed.

2) For that group stage = what's wrong with grouping teams of more equal quality together - crowning an interim lower level champ on the road to finalising the biz end with that champ included ?

Isn't the difference of opinion on Tier 2 related to those teams being cut off from the Tier 1 AI Series in the same year ? With a 'McDonagh Cup' same year link, a majority should support it. Who favours the lambs getting further slaughtered against the elite instead? With a Tier 2, you'd weed out all but the best, who would be better equipped at taking on most Tier 1 teams.

This debate could be ended with lopsided groups with a greater quantity of quality teams entering the biz end.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2582 - 02/11/2018 17:35:17    2149294

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4221 - 02/11/2018 18:09:33    2149299