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Omahants Competition Formats/Proposals

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@CheachtPeile - I'm curious - do Cavan people like it, or want change, or are they just split down the middle ? What happens after 4 rds - one league table, to determine conventional KO, 8 of 16 or what ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1403 - 20/07/2018 19:43:25    2124107

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@Whammo86 - Those 4 rds could have a lot of great Inter-Prov pairings - so it's not just all about the Ulster Champp and few games in Connacht anymore. A simple solution to a complex problem.
Top 16 of 32 straight to Rd of 16 ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1403 - 20/07/2018 19:57:12    2124119

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With Dubs still playing same 3 games in Lein as now, they'd only have 1 different in Rd 1.
Maybe better to have 6 rds for greater variety for all (that is, an additional 2 'All Inter-Prov' rds) ?
This will increase dead rubber risk, however - so KO field needs to be broad to counter - say KO 20.
1v16/17; 2v15/18; .....5v12;.....8v9.
High v Low winners in next KO rds.
This could be more exciting than what we will conclude about the 'Super 8' !

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1403 - 20/07/2018 22:59:16    2124174

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Replying To omahant:  "With Dubs still playing same 3 games in Lein as now, they'd only have 1 different in Rd 1.
Maybe better to have 6 rds for greater variety for all (that is, an additional 2 'All Inter-Prov' rds) ?
This will increase dead rubber risk, however - so KO field needs to be broad to counter - say KO 20.
1v16/17; 2v15/18; .....5v12;.....8v9.
High v Low winners in next KO rds.
This could be more exciting than what we will conclude about the 'Super 8' !"
Yeh 6 rounds moving to a top 20.

Results carry forward.

2 further rounds moving to a top 12 knockout tournament could be interesting.

It would provide teams with a lot of games and retain the Provincial championships.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 2167 - 21/07/2018 04:40:08    2124198

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Replying To omahant:  "How is this unique looking format presented - is Shara's name known ?"
No I'd doubt Shara's name is known. This format was used previously in Longford (they changed their system in 2016) and (I think) predated Shara's proposal. It may be just a coincidence that the systems are similar.

CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 48 - 23/07/2018 22:36:24    2125472

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Replying To omahant:  "@CheachtPeile - I'm curious - do Cavan people like it, or want change, or are they just split down the middle ? What happens after 4 rds - one league table, to determine conventional KO, 8 of 16 or what ?"
Last year there were 14 teams in the senior championship (this year there are 12). After four rounds of open draws (only proviso being that repeat fixtures were not allowed) the top eight teams went into the quarter finals (where there was then an open draw for pairings) and the bottom six went into relegation play offs.
A major problem is that play-offs have to be used if teams are equal on points and a quarter final place is at stake. Score difference can't really be used as the teams will have had different schedules so you're not comparing like with like.
The other problem is, because there's no seeding used for the draws, two teams can have very different schedules in terms of difficulty.

CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 48 - 23/07/2018 22:51:17    2125480

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Yes, and Shara tries to overcome that last point with his pot subdivision. I think I like the round-by-round draw as teams cannot 'manage' where to get the required points in advance.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1403 - 24/07/2018 11:20:44    2125593

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The Super 8 has shown us a knee jerk reaction after Phase 1 and a more informed opinion after Phase 2. The GAA sensibly set this out as a 3 year trial period for that reason.

The GAA being the GAA, the next move is likely to be one step. I think it'll be too soon for any tiered approach.

Expanding to 4 groups of 4 or switching to provincial groups like hurling might be the leading formats put forward.

There's never really been a proper discussion in GAA circles on granting Ulster and Leinster quarter-final winners a better reward than the first round quarter-final winners of the smaller provinces.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 5665 - 24/07/2018 21:40:35    2125913

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The Super 8 has shown us a knee jerk reaction after Phase 1 and a more informed opinion after Phase 2. The GAA sensibly set this out as a 3 year trial period for that reason.

The GAA being the GAA, the next move is likely to be one step. I think it'll be too soon for any tiered approach.

Expanding to 4 groups of 4 or switching to provincial groups like hurling might be the leading formats put forward.

There's never really been a proper discussion in GAA circles on granting Ulster and Leinster quarter-final winners a better reward than the first round quarter-final winners of the smaller provinces."
Yeah man

I have a couple of ideas.

For the qualifiers:

The first round should include the 4 beaten Munster and Connacht semifinalists.

4 teams should receive byes from this round with any team that won a Provincial game getting precedence.

8 teams eliminated

The second round should include the 8 winners plus the 4 bye teams.

6 teams eliminated.

Ulster and Leinster semifinalists and Munster and Connacht finalists should play in the 3rd round

6 teams eliminated

Ulster and Leinster finalists join at round 4.

4 teams eliminated.

Quarterfinals

It's a close to fair representation of counties at each stage of the competition without over complicating things.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 2167 - 24/07/2018 22:39:59    2125936

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@Whammo86 - You know I'd go for that.

I am biased however - I prefer my 2 unbeaten Champs + 6 Qualifiers (what I call 2+6) for various reasons - not least, min 3 matches per team and the competition is more streamlined/less layers.

I have winning teams advancing through the Front Door one round ahead of their beaten opponents - in yours, there are some 2 round gaps with more match practice for losers similar to the existing problem. Example, losers in Muns SF, Final and then Champ enter rounds 1, 3 and '5' (AI QFs).

Legendzxix wants us to enjoy the games !

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1403 - 25/07/2018 15:14:19    2126138

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The Super 8 has shown us a knee jerk reaction after Phase 1 and a more informed opinion after Phase 2. The GAA sensibly set this out as a 3 year trial period for that reason.

The GAA being the GAA, the next move is likely to be one step. I think it'll be too soon for any tiered approach.

Expanding to 4 groups of 4 or switching to provincial groups like hurling might be the leading formats put forward.

There's never really been a proper discussion in GAA circles on granting Ulster and Leinster quarter-final winners a better reward than the first round quarter-final winners of the smaller provinces."
@Legendzxix
You could have a Prov Last 24 (aligning Lein/Uls QFs and Muns/Conn SFs).
They play 3 Front Door rds - 3 unbeaten to AI QFs.
Losers of 12, 6, 3 enter Qual Rds 2, 3, 4.
8 'non-Prov Last 24' losers enter 8-team Qual Rd 1.
Qual Rds 2, 3, 4 are Rds of 16, 14, 10.
5 Rd 4 winners complete the AI QFs.

This 3 unbeaten Prov Champs + 5 Qualifiers (call it 3+5) is similar to my 2+6 but requires a Champs Playoff for Muns/Conn only. Regardless of effort and fairness, there has been some past resistance in this forum for treating Prov Champs differently - which led me to adjust to 2+6 and which has not attracted similar criticism.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1403 - 25/07/2018 15:34:29    2126147

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Replying To omahant:  "@Legendzxix
You could have a Prov Last 24 (aligning Lein/Uls QFs and Muns/Conn SFs).
They play 3 Front Door rds - 3 unbeaten to AI QFs.
Losers of 12, 6, 3 enter Qual Rds 2, 3, 4.
8 'non-Prov Last 24' losers enter 8-team Qual Rd 1.
Qual Rds 2, 3, 4 are Rds of 16, 14, 10.
5 Rd 4 winners complete the AI QFs.

This 3 unbeaten Prov Champs + 5 Qualifiers (call it 3+5) is similar to my 2+6 but requires a Champs Playoff for Muns/Conn only. Regardless of effort and fairness, there has been some past resistance in this forum for treating Prov Champs differently - which led me to adjust to 2+6 and which has not attracted similar criticism."
According to Joe Brolly on the SG the last night, Roscommon are not good enough for the Sam Maguire cup competition, and if my hearing wasn't deceiving me, he said that they should be playing in 'thepawdyshay', whatever that is!

Can your remorseless appetite for draw format suggestions encompass a dog show like The Pawdy Shay into the overall scheme of things, doubling the number of games for all teams, while halving the timeframe for playing these games?

Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 2132 - 25/07/2018 16:03:12    2126155

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Look - without an audience and engagement by others I'd have to stop - the point being, others are sharing format ideas as well.

The difference with me is - I'm more of a one trick pony - living here, I don't get to go to matches and I lose perspective on players etc.

If I get enough support on this forum - I'll consider that dog (and pony ?) show.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1403 - 25/07/2018 17:27:28    2126197

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It's the Leinster and Ulster county boards and provincial councils who should be seeking to iron out any provincial imbalance.

Omahant - have you any comment on Dublin Region? Surely the Railway Cup is the route for them to take?

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 5665 - 26/07/2018 11:08:33    2126333

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Replying To legendzxix:  "It's the Leinster and Ulster county boards and provincial councils who should be seeking to iron out any provincial imbalance.

Omahant - have you any comment on Dublin Region? Surely the Railway Cup is the route for them to take?"
Sorry - I don't understand the q- 'Dublin Region ?' - is it if I am in favour of splitting Dublin into separate regional entities ? If so, I believe yes.
While I typically do not wish to curtail success - Kilk hurl or Kerry foot over the yrs - the Dub issue is different given the population and marketing power - things go in cycles, but this is one that appears unbreakable.
To be fair to Dubs though, each county should be subject to similar rules - like should each team represent a similar population count ?
Should we move toward Electoral Constituecies - Dubs 10 or so teams, Cork 4 etc. with more derbies adding to excitement.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1403 - 26/07/2018 17:04:01    2126486

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Replying To omahant:  "Sorry - I don't understand the q- 'Dublin Region ?' - is it if I am in favour of splitting Dublin into separate regional entities ? If so, I believe yes.
While I typically do not wish to curtail success - Kilk hurl or Kerry foot over the yrs - the Dub issue is different given the population and marketing power - things go in cycles, but this is one that appears unbreakable.
To be fair to Dubs though, each county should be subject to similar rules - like should each team represent a similar population count ?
Should we move toward Electoral Constituecies - Dubs 10 or so teams, Cork 4 etc. with more derbies adding to excitement."
He was only messing.

The thing is, if it got buy in a 5 team mini league with Provinces and Dublin would probably be an exciting tournament.

2 home games each, top 2 to the final.

The intercounty championship would be incredibly competitive too minus Dublin.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 2167 - 26/07/2018 20:13:02    2126519

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LOL - I totally missed that - lack of prior humour blindsided me - hahaha.

Now of course, I will expecting more of the same.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1403 - 26/07/2018 22:43:24    2126555

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Replying To Whammo86:  "He was only messing.

The thing is, if it got buy in a 5 team mini league with Provinces and Dublin would probably be an exciting tournament.

2 home games each, top 2 to the final.

The intercounty championship would be incredibly competitive too minus Dublin."
The 4 Regions that make up the Dublin Region would each be allowed enter the All-Ireland Championship. It would mean 4 times as many players getting the opportunity to play inter-county football.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 5665 - 26/07/2018 23:42:14    2126586

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Would any of you guys like a national club tournament in lieu of intercounty ?
Carifin, St Vincents, Austin Stacks, Nemo Rangers etc. in the 'Premier League'.

Have graded tournaments down the line with promotion / relegation. To limit travel, create groups where half the opponents are local and play only 'half of the other half' (quarter of schedule) long distance away.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1403 - 28/07/2018 22:40:32    2127121

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What a cracking wkd for the AI SHC SFs !
And with such limited strong counties too - what can be done with AI SFC to create similar excitement / competitiveness ?
Should efforts be made to create just 12 strong teams - the Leitrims could join a multi-county or a 'Rest of Connacht' team ? - only NFL Div 1 have counties of their own and the others join one of four composite teams ? Any county can have its own team if it gains promotion to Div 1 - so fans of the less successful counties could root for a more realistic challenger.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1403 - 30/07/2018 05:17:26    2127426

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