In hurling you'd be talking tiers of the following:

League/Qualifiers period

10/12/13 4 qualifiers for the championship.

Championship then

14/12/9 in each tier.

Again teams getting 2 competitions at a mix of levels whilst still keeping the competition at 3 tiers for each part of the season.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 13/07/2018 11:30:49    2121270

That Champp mid 12 would then have 2 McD and 2 Rackard teams included with the Ring teams. I wonder if the Meagher teams would be out of their depth in the low NHL 13 ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 13/07/2018 20:50:58    2121442

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 13/07/2018 21:18:01    2121448

Go back to basics in hurling and apply group stage for the All-Ireland series;

12 teams in traditional knockout provincial championships. 4 quarter-final losers should enter a play-off round robin. Top two to join provincial semi-finalists in 2 groups of 5 in the All-Ireland Championship.

Bottom team in the 4 team round robin relegated. McDonagh Cup winner promoted to their provincial championship of the following year.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7823 - 14/07/2018 20:32:37    2121701

FOOTBALL 20 team All-Ireland series;

4 provincial finalists from Connaught and Munster. (Provinces with less than 8 teams classified as single branch championships and awarded 2 places each.)
8 provincial semi-finalists from Leinster and Ulster. (Provinces with more than 8 teams classified as double branch championships and awarded 4 places each.)
1 or 0 All-Ireland winner from previous year. (0 as might qualify through provincial championship as well.)
1 or 0 Championship II winner from the previous year. (0 as might qualify through provincial championship as well.)
6, 7 or 8 qualifiers. (Number of qualifier spaces will depend on progress of All-Ireland winner and Championship II winner in their respective provinces. 18, 19 or 20 teams would enter the qualifiers.)

All-Ireland qualifiers rounds;
18, 19 or 20 teams will enter the qualifiers in pursuit of 6, 7 or 8 spots respectively.
Number of teams entering the qualifiers will be known after Connaught and Munster semi-finals, and after Leinster and Ulster quarter-finals.
Qualifiers to take place over 2 qualifying rounds.
League placing used to grant byes from Qualifier Round 1 as necessary.

20 teams into 4 groups of 5;

2 home games and 2 away games each.
Provincial winners drawn as top seeds.
Provincial runners-up drawn as second seeds.
Provincial semi-finalists from Leinster and Ulster drawn as third seeds.
All remaining counties drawn as seeds 4 and 5 ranked on league placing.
Top 2 from each group into All-Ireland quarter-finals.

Championship II;
4 groups of 3.
1 home game and 1 away game each.
Top 2 from each group into quarter-finals. Top team from each group given home advantage in the quarter-finals.
Championship II winner guaranteed a spot in the All-Ireland group stage of the following year.

Main positives;
All teams get two bites at the All-Ireland group stage cherry.
All teams get the same number of home games in the group stage.
Provincial semi-finalists in Connaught and Munster might only have to win one game to qualify for the All-Ireland series. This opportunity will also be available for Leinster and Ulster quarter-finalists. This restores balance in the provincial system. Championship II participants are offered a meaningful reward for winning the championship. This opportunity is also rewarded to the All-Ireland winner in the interests of fairness.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7823 - 15/07/2018 13:34:32    2122055

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 15/07/2018 13:50:40    2122067

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 15/07/2018 13:57:45    2122069

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7823 - 15/07/2018 14:18:53    2122079

I like this idea as well - max of 11 games for an Uls Prelim Rd winner to win Sam (Prov 4, Group 4, AI Series 3; - or Prov 2, Quals 2, Group 4, AI Series 3).
How would NFL work - unchanged 4x8 ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 17/07/2018 04:38:54    2122976

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7823 - 17/07/2018 17:53:32    2123242

Ok so I've a different one that's somewhat inspired be Legendzxix's.

The football championship is a 2 tiered tournament of 16 teams in each tier.

2 groups of 8 in each tier.

Top 3 from each group into playoffs.

Top 5 from each group in tier 1 retain their place in the top tier.

Tier 2 champion gets a place in the top tier the following season.

At the start of each season 5 places remain open in the top tier. These are determined by the Provincial championships.

The 5 places are allocated in a top down approach based on Provincial championship performance rated in the following order of preference.

Tranche 1. Provincial champions
Tranche 2. Ulster and Leinster runners up
Tranche 3. Munster and Connacht runners up
Tranche 4. Ulster and Leinster semifinalists
Tranche 5. Ulster/Leinster quarterfinalists and Munster/Connacht semifinalists.

Realistically it's unlikely that the 5 teams will be allocated by tranche 4. After the Ulster/Leinster quarterfinals and Munster/Connacht semifinals we will know the number of Tranche 5 teams not already qualified and how many places are available to them. 2 or 3 rounds of qualifiers will return the Tier 1 championship lineup.

No NFL. 4 Provincial championship weeks, 7 group stage games plus 3 playoff rounds in the intercounty season.

Championship finishing position is used to seed teams to determine Provincial championship byes for the following season.

Lots of time for club football.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 18/07/2018 05:55:50    2123363

@Whammo86

It's a good plan. I enjoy the league though and don't want it scrapped. I think there's a place for a 5 match regular league season prior to the championships. We are still speaking about an amateur sport.

County club championships and provincial club championships can very easily be completed from the middle of August to the end of November.

While I like a GAA plan to possibly bring the All-Ireland club finals to the beginning of December, it's hard to see those club finals moving from the March slot.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7823 - 18/07/2018 19:29:58    2123585

As one of us has written repeatedly in the past - we should give this a rest - and enjoy the games ! :)

I seem to get 'cold turkey' myself regularly and just pull you guys in ! -
Sorry, but I enjoy the idea sharing.

@Whammo86 - 'Tranche' - excuse me - enough to have the 'powers-that-be' take a run for the hills :)

@Legendzxix - I don't know if you've seen/opined on Leandro Shara's ideas - I'd like to see what you think (found his name in a World Soccer mag piece a few yrs ago - also on web) -

Essentially, he argues against tournament group structure for a variety of reasons - dead rubbers, matches played to a result that benefit both teams, throwing games to get a target KO opponent, no group head-to-head between best teams etc.
His main idea is liked by Wham and me - but is querky - I'll use the World Cup Finals as an example -
Divide any number of Finalists into a determined number of seeded pots - using Russia 2018, that is 4 pots of 8.
Teams are scheduled to play an equal number of teams from each pot including THEIR OWN !
So, say each 2018 Finalist plays 1 per pot for 4 games instead (each team plays a unique quartet).
While there are no groups, each team plays a relatvely 'equal strength' schedule.
At the end of the regular season (4 matches here), all 32 teams are placed in one table, with the desired quantity of top teams (16 here) advancing to the KO stage (1v16, 2v15 etc adds incentive to do well and teams have less control over earning the lower 14-15-16 berths - best winners could continue, or not, to play weakest winners in other rounds).

In your wish for NFL retention, you could have say, a limited 2 tiered divisions of 16, each with 2 pots.
So in Div 1- say, teams could play 3 from each pot for a 6-match schedule, with a Top 6 KO emerging from each 16.
See Wham's good post earlier where he used Shara for both league (14 T1 / 18 T2) and championship (20 T1 / 12 T2 - champp can incorporate the Prov results in tables as well).
Plenty of flexibility to determine league size and season length, if there was only a will to try something different / better.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 18/07/2018 22:41:48    2123633

@Wham - You didn't like the possible 'tanking' aspect in my prior handicapping of 2 Confs of 16 (recall I avoided pot 1v4 to lessen one-sided games).
To address this - I could have 2 Tiers of 16 (AIC/NFL merged).
Teams could play 5 from each of 2 pots (10-match schedule for all 32 teams).
Top 8 to AI QFs in both Tiers.
Tier 1 Bottom 8 in 4 playoffs / 4 losers go down.
Tier 2 SF 4 go up.

All told, I like your short NFL (separate) and wider AIC Tier 1 better, as it allows teams to 'ebb and flo' go up/down even within the same season.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 18/07/2018 23:18:49    2123645

The Shara system is very interesting. It's effectively being used in Cavan for all championships this year - the only difference being that there are no seeding pots. There is an open draw after each round (4 rounds in total) to determine the pairings for the next round with a proviso that repeat pairings are disallowed.

CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 96 - 18/07/2018 23:55:46    2123655

There was a suggestion a few years back in the hurling league of teams playing opponents of certain seeding. It didn't gain support however.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/hurling/2013/1012/480006-hurling/

"However, an alternative proposal was put forward that would see two groups of six 'graded' teams.

All teams in each group would play each other plus two teams from the same grade in the other group.

This would guarantee each team seven games in the regular season."

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7823 - 19/07/2018 07:47:01    2123670

I personally like a Shara system. It's just not especially familiar over here.

A modified Shara could work in both football and hurling.

In football every team play 4 games inclusive of their Provincial championship fixtures.

Week 1

4 Leinster and Ulster preliminary rounds
12 other Interprovincial ties involving 7 teams from Ulster, 5 from Leinster and all the Munster and Connacht teams.

Week 2

Provincial championship quarterfinals. 4 in each of Ulster and Leinster, 2 in each of Connacht and Munster.

4 Interprovincial ties. Involving 1 Ulster and 3 Leinster preliminary round teams and the 2 bye teams in each of Munster and Connacht.

Week 3

8 Provincial semifinals
8 Interprovincial games with the eliminated teams from the Provinces. 5 Ulster, 7 Leinster 2 each from Munster and Connacht.

Week 4

4 Provincial finals.
12 Interprovincial games 7 Ulster teams, 9 Leinster, 4 each from Connacht and Munster.

Onwards to some sort of All Ireland series.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 19/07/2018 11:54:50    2123721

OK will give this a go. Baked up two similar ideas yesterday. Football only for now.

Idea 1

4 Provinces as always but are 4 team round robins. Top 2 go to Prov final. Winner goes to QF or S8, whichever really.
Runner up and 3rd in group goes into All Ireland earlier round explained below.
Last in group is out of championship and will be relegated from province for following season.
16 teams in total will start in their province
Provinces are elites comps with a trophy and later stage progression available.

Remaining 16 teams form 4 more round robin groups to play same weekends as provinces. Top two in each go through.

All Ireland Round 1. Round Robin phase. 4 groups of 4. Top 2 emerge. 8 in total.

All Ireland Round 2. Knock out. 8 teams from Round 1 play each other. 4 group winners seeded.

All Ireland Round 3. Knock out. 4 Winners of Round 2 play 4 3rd place teams in Provincial groups.

All Ireland Round 4. Knock out. 4 Winners of Round 3 play 4 Provincial runners up.

All Ireland QF. 4 Provincial winnesr and 4 winners of Round 4. Can be traditional QF or S8 format. Work from there to the final.

Best team from each province that wasn't in Provincial championship replace 4th in provincial group in following year (promoted).

Idea 2
Slightly more politically palatable. Especially to Ulster heads.

Provinces are round robin but Ulster and Leinster 8 teams and 2 groups of 4. Munster and Connacht follow Idea 1 format. Top team in the two Ulster and Leinster groups gets to Provincial final.
Prov final. Winner goes to QF
Last in group is out of championship and will be relegated from province for following season.

Remaining 8 teams form 2 more round robin groups to play same weekends as provinces. Top team in each go through.

All Ireland Round 1. Round Robin phase. 2 groups of 4. Top team in each emerges. 2 in total.

All Ireland Round 2. Knock out. 8 teams. 2 teams from Round 1 and 6 teams that finished 3rd in Provincial groups

All Ireland Round 3. Knock out. 4 Winners of Round 2 play 4 Provincial runners up.

All Ireland QF. 4 Provincial winner and 4 winners of Round . Can be traditional QF or S8 format. Work from there to the final.

Best performing Con and Mun team, 2 best Lein team the one Ulster team that wasn't in Provincial championship replace 4th in provincial group in following year (promoted).

In both formats I's reduce league from 7 to 5 games similar to Hurling to reduce games.
In both formats all teams guaranteed 3 games.
Provinces retained, more condensed and competitive (particularly in Idea 1)
All teams start championship at their own level but can still aim for Sam and not dumping anyone into a Tier 2 comp.

RoyalBadger (Meath) - Posts: 571 - 19/07/2018 12:54:00    2123743

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 20/07/2018 04:04:29    2123925

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 20/07/2018 04:06:58    2123926