HoganStand GAA Football and Hurling

National Forum

Let's Stop Talking About Change!

(Oldest Posts First)

You need to Login to Post

Every year we see articles upon articles about a change in Championship structure. We will know, if some counties want to admit it or not - the football championship is probably the most inbalanced sporting competition in the world. It has allowed some counties to stay at the top and hindered success amongst others due to geography. However the success of the GAA is it's biggest barrier to change in 2018. Every provincial council now has full time staff on comfortable wages, they each make their own money and in many ways are four seperate and successful business's. None of those council's are going to allow their biggest money making machine to disappear into a centralised pot. If the structure changes to an All Ireland Championship with no Provincial Championships or Championships that have no affect on the All Ireland, revenue streams would change over night. The GAA has a democratic system - due to this it will never get the required support to abandon the Provincial Championships. These are the competitions that is hindering a fair system but I think it is time people accepted they will never change. sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 999 - 28/04/2018 12:39:42 2095457 Link
Replying To sam1884: "Every year we see articles upon articles about a change in Championship structure. We will know, if some counties want to admit it or not - the football championship is probably the most inbalanced sporting competition in the world. It has allowed some counties to stay at the top and hindered success amongst others due to geography. However the success of the GAA is it's biggest barrier to change in 2018. Every provincial council now has full time staff on comfortable wages, they each make their own money and in many ways are four seperate and successful business's. None of those council's are going to allow their biggest money making machine to disappear into a centralised pot. If the structure changes to an All Ireland Championship with no Provincial Championships or Championships that have no affect on the All Ireland, revenue streams would change over night. The GAA has a democratic system - due to this it will never get the required support to abandon the Provincial Championships. These are the competitions that is hindering a fair system but I think it is time people accepted they will never change." There are ways of keeping the Provincial championships as part of the All Ireland and making things fairer. I have a few thought of a few. My favourite one that is possibly viable is as follows. Play the leagues and Provincial championships in parallel. The two competitions are used for seeding the All Ireland series. 8 A seeds: Enter at All Ireland round 3 (the last 16), includes 4 Provincial champions, division 2 champion, plus next best 3 teams from the league. 8 B seeds: Enter at All Ireland round 2 (the last 24), includes any Provincial runners up, division 3 champion plus then as many from the league as needed to make the numbers up to 8. 16 non seeds that enter at All Ireland round 1. The lowest ranked leagues not including the division 3 champion or teams playing in Provincial finals. To make the leagues and Provincial championships also important the quarterfinal and semifinal pairings are predetermined The quarterfinal pairings for the A seeds or the team that beats them is as follows. Quarterfinal 1 Best ranked Provincial champion v 4th ranked non Provincial champion Quarterfinal final 2 3rd ranked Provincial champion v 2nd ranked non Provincial champion Quarterfinal 3 2nd ranked Provincial champion v 3rd ranked non Provincial champion Quarterfinal 4 4th ranked Provincial champion v best ranked non Provincial champion Semifinals Winner of Quarterfinal 1 v winner 2 Winner of 3 v winner of 4 The following seedlings mean that Provincial champions can't meet until the semifinals, top 4 placed teams in the league can't meet in the semifinals and top 2 placed teams in the league can't meet until the final. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 28/04/2018 13:34:40 2095464 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "There are ways of keeping the Provincial championships as part of the All Ireland and making things fairer. I have a few thought of a few. My favourite one that is possibly viable is as follows. Play the leagues and Provincial championships in parallel. The two competitions are used for seeding the All Ireland series. 8 A seeds: Enter at All Ireland round 3 (the last 16), includes 4 Provincial champions, division 2 champion, plus next best 3 teams from the league. 8 B seeds: Enter at All Ireland round 2 (the last 24), includes any Provincial runners up, division 3 champion plus then as many from the league as needed to make the numbers up to 8. 16 non seeds that enter at All Ireland round 1. The lowest ranked leagues not including the division 3 champion or teams playing in Provincial finals. To make the leagues and Provincial championships also important the quarterfinal and semifinal pairings are predetermined The quarterfinal pairings for the A seeds or the team that beats them is as follows. Quarterfinal 1 Best ranked Provincial champion v 4th ranked non Provincial champion Quarterfinal final 2 3rd ranked Provincial champion v 2nd ranked non Provincial champion Quarterfinal 3 2nd ranked Provincial champion v 3rd ranked non Provincial champion Quarterfinal 4 4th ranked Provincial champion v best ranked non Provincial champion Semifinals Winner of Quarterfinal 1 v winner 2 Winner of 3 v winner of 4 The following seedlings mean that Provincial champions can't meet until the semifinals, top 4 placed teams in the league can't meet in the semifinals and top 2 placed teams in the league can't meet until the final." This looks like a very complicated system!! In my opinion it is clear the Provincial councils will not allow their Championships to be played before May. They want big summer days when other sports are out of season and crowds are attracted to games. This would make it difficult to play the national league in parallel with Provincial Championships. With your proposal the division 2 champions would be guaranteed a last 16 place prior to the start of the Championship if the league is played beforehand. This would potentially dilute the Provincial Championship's impact on the All Ireland which mentioned earlier councils will not accept. I believe we need to get on with the Championships and accept Politics will ensure the current system will never change. The super 8's may be the best we get, because I reckon the Central GAA want change but have accepted change can only happen around the edges as real change is impossible. sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 999 - 28/04/2018 14:37:27 2095474 Link
Ya I mentioned on another thread during the week that the provincial councils won't want to relinquish their power too easy. Change is needed. KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 28/04/2018 15:28:22 2095490 Link
Replying To KingdomBoy1: "Ya I mentioned on another thread during the week that the provincial councils won't want to relinquish their power too easy. Change is needed." The day full time employment was introduced at Provincial level was the day real change became an impossibility. No matter what way it is dressed up without Provincial Championships and the revenue generated from it, over time Provincial councils would disappear and become centralised. Instead of discussions around Championship structure, a discussion needs to take place around Admin structures and how the organisation is run. County Boards and Central Council would be the answer with Provincial councils dropped. It would be the only answer to modernising the GAA. Without that, Championship structures would not change. sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 999 - 28/04/2018 16:18:23 2095497 Link
Replying To sam1884: "This looks like a very complicated system!! In my opinion it is clear the Provincial councils will not allow their Championships to be played before May. They want big summer days when other sports are out of season and crowds are attracted to games. This would make it difficult to play the national league in parallel with Provincial Championships. With your proposal the division 2 champions would be guaranteed a last 16 place prior to the start of the Championship if the league is played beforehand. This would potentially dilute the Provincial Championship's impact on the All Ireland which mentioned earlier councils will not accept. I believe we need to get on with the Championships and accept Politics will ensure the current system will never change. The super 8's may be the best we get, because I reckon the Central GAA want change but have accepted change can only happen around the edges as real change is impossible." Don't be too dismissive. Don't worry too much about the quarterfinal seeding. I don't think it's more complicated than the qualifiers. AI round 1: worst 16 teams in the league (excluding division 3 champion) not making their Provincial final AI round 2: Round 1 winners play 8 next worst teams from the league excluding Provincial champions and division 2 winner AI last 16: Round 2 winners play 4 Provincial champions plus division 2 winner plus 3 remaining best placed league teams The calendar March 4th NFL 1 March 11th NFL2 March 18th Break March 25th Club Football April 1st Break April 8th NFL3 April 15th NFL4 April 22nd Ulster and Leinster preliminaries April 29th Break May 6th Club football May 13th Break May 20th NFL5 May 27th Provincial quarterfinals June 3rd Break June 10th Club football June 17th Break June 24th NFL6 July 1st Provincial semifinals July 8th Break July 15th Club football July 22nd Break July 29th NFL 7 5th August Provincial finals, AI round 1 12th August Break 19th August AI round 2 26th August AI round 3 2nd September Break 9th September AI quarterfinals 16th September AI semifinals 23th September Break 30th September AI final Club football every other week finishing the season before Christmas I am also able to fit Hurling in around that calendar. Club hurling and hurling Provincial championship games are played on football break weeks. NHL does sometimes get played alongside football Provincial championship though. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 28/04/2018 16:21:27 2095498 Link
In my season there's no need for a B championship as every team plays until at least the August bank holiday weekend. There is still provisions made for club games. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 28/04/2018 16:22:55 2095499 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "Don't be too dismissive. Don't worry too much about the quarterfinal seeding. I don't think it's more complicated than the qualifiers. AI round 1: worst 16 teams in the league (excluding division 3 champion) not making their Provincial final AI round 2: Round 1 winners play 8 next worst teams from the league excluding Provincial champions and division 2 winner AI last 16: Round 2 winners play 4 Provincial champions plus division 2 winner plus 3 remaining best placed league teams The calendar March 4th NFL 1 March 11th NFL2 March 18th Break March 25th Club Football April 1st Break April 8th NFL3 April 15th NFL4 April 22nd Ulster and Leinster preliminaries April 29th Break May 6th Club football May 13th Break May 20th NFL5 May 27th Provincial quarterfinals June 3rd Break June 10th Club football June 17th Break June 24th NFL6 July 1st Provincial semifinals July 8th Break July 15th Club football July 22nd Break July 29th NFL 7 5th August Provincial finals, AI round 1 12th August Break 19th August AI round 2 26th August AI round 3 2nd September Break 9th September AI quarterfinals 16th September AI semifinals 23th September Break 30th September AI final Club football every other week finishing the season before Christmas I am also able to fit Hurling in around that calendar. Club hurling and hurling Provincial championship games are played on football break weeks. NHL does sometimes get played alongside football Provincial championship though." An awful plan to be fair. You have made no mention of club hurling or even intercounty hurling 890202 (Wexford) - Posts: 1278 - 30/04/2018 08:58:05 2095648 Link
If you want change adopt the rugby model. You play for the county you don't play for your club unless you are released back by your counties to play. If you play for province in rugby you don't play for your club. Why not implement this? If a player feels super loyal to his club he wont play for the county. The county is the pinnacle of most players careers, the county game is miles better than club so why do the members want to sacrifice it? gotmilk (Fermanagh) - Posts: 4971 - 30/04/2018 10:35:43 2095667 Link
Replying To 890202: "An awful plan to be fair. You have made no mention of club hurling or even intercounty hurling" They are in the plan I couldn't be bothered typing it out at the time. In general Club hurling is played the week after Club football. NHL shares some time with NFL or is played the same weekend as Provincial football. Hurling Provincial championship gets played the weekend after football Provincial championship and the weekend before Club football. The hurling system I'd use is: 4 divisions 10,10,8,7. Single round robins. Provincial championships: 8 in Leinster, 4 Ulster, all 6 in Munster Hurling All Ireland has 16 teams in it based on finishing league positions. Ulster champions and previous years christy ring champions to be included. 8 enter at round 1 4 enter at round 2 4 enter at round 3. (Munster Leinster champions plus next best 2 from league) Christy ring involved all teams not in All Ireland. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 30/04/2018 10:58:22 2095675 Link
In England, soccer teams play in the league, League Cup and FA cup. Some teams play in the Uefa Cup or Champions league. Some players play International Football. Nobody ever gives out about the competition structure! Surely we can learn allot from across the water? Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1415 - 30/04/2018 11:35:45 2095685 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "They are in the plan I couldn't be bothered typing it out at the time. In general Club hurling is played the week after Club football. NHL shares some time with NFL or is played the same weekend as Provincial football. Hurling Provincial championship gets played the weekend after football Provincial championship and the weekend before Club football. The hurling system I'd use is: 4 divisions 10,10,8,7. Single round robins. Provincial championships: 8 in Leinster, 4 Ulster, all 6 in Munster Hurling All Ireland has 16 teams in it based on finishing league positions. Ulster champions and previous years christy ring champions to be included. 8 enter at round 1 4 enter at round 2 4 enter at round 3. (Munster Leinster champions plus next best 2 from league) Christy ring involved all teams not in All Ireland." March 4th NFL 1, NHL1 March 11th NFL2, NHL2 March 18th Break , NHL3 March 25th Club Football, Break April 1st Break, Club Hurling April 8th NFL3, Break April 15th NFL4, NHL4 April 22nd Ulster and Leinster preliminaries, NHL5 April 29th Break, NHL6 May 6th Club football, Break May 13th Break, Club Hurling May 20th NFL5, Break May 27th Provincial quarterfinals, NHL7 June 3rd Break , Provincial Hurling quarterfinals June 10th Club football, Break June 17th Break, Club Hurling June 24th NFL6, Break July 1st Provincial semifinals, NHL8 July 8th Break, Provincial Hurling semifinals July 15th Club football, Break July 22nd Break, Club Hurling July 29th NFL 7, Break 5th August Provincial finals, AI round 1, NHL9 12th August Break, Provincial Hurling finals, AI Hurling round 1 19th August AI round 2, AI Hurling round 2 26th August AI round 3, Break 2nd September Break, AI Hurling quarterfinals 9th September AI quarterfinals, AI Hurling semifinals 16th September AI semifinals , Break 23th September Break, AI Hurling final 30th September AI final Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 30/04/2018 15:51:16 2095743 Link
what more do people want? its constant tiring complaining. the only way you'll ever even out the championship for every county is go professional and have a draft system. i say that as a joke as it'll never happen and no one wants it to happen. We already have a League.!!!! The league is the most balanced competition we have and its been played out in spring like a halftime blitz at a county final. get it over and done!!!!......... why isn't our league given higher precedence.? Our championship is the equivalent of the FA cup. why isn't the structure improved to have league games and championship games running concurrently into the summer. there would still be room for club games in between. I'd love to know how the voting systems work at the GAA meetings as how the super 8's got the go ahead is beyond me. Actually i'll hazard one guess....$$$$$$ There's enough of games as it stands. Abolish qualifiers and the super 8's. Play League into summer. give it more air time, make it important. Build and they will come................ theweanling (Cavan) - Posts: 414 - 30/04/2018 16:10:42 2095745 Link
Here we go again - just when I get aother blood rush and offer more format solutions - I see my best audience is just as addicted - To give the AIC a facelift launch, I offer the following (played in parallel with the Provs): Top NFL 18 (incl prior 2 Div 3 promoted and 2 POSe Cup finalists less 2 Div 2 relegated) drawn into 6 three-team 'inter-prov' groups (pairing variety with intra-Provs). They play each other once. Top 2 in each group join 4 Prov Champs in AIC Sam Last 16 (Prov Champs bye to AI QFs, if qualifying from groups as well). Other 14 to POSe Cup - 4 three-team groups and 1 'two-legged' Div 4 pair. Best 3 2nds of 4x3 join 5 winners in POS QFs. Two in the final go to AI Sam groups the following year, while all 14 still contest Provs on road to Sam as well. One more below.....merging NFL with AIC: Split each NFL div into two halves. Merge one half of each div (A1, A2, A3, A4) to form 16-team Group A; and 4 other halves (B1, B2, B3, B4) to 16-team Group B. Teams play a 'handicapped' 12-match schedule - as each team in Group A plays 12 of 16 Group B teams. Divs 1 v 4 is avoided (too one sided) as are Divs 2 v 3 (reduces match count). Top 6 in Group A form top half of the AI Sam KO, with non-repeat QFs: 1st in A v (4th or 5th in A) and 2nd in A v (3rd or 6th in A). The 'A QF' winners meet in one AI SF. After Group B plays a similar KO, the AI Final is an 'A v B' Final, the only repeat pairing (if unexpectedly, there are none at all. For following year - even placed teams (2nd, 4th, 6th etc) switch groups for variety - again 1st 4 avoids 4th 4, and 2nd 4 avoids 3rd 4. What do you think ? omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 01/05/2018 23:41:21 2096150 Link
Here we go again - just when I get aother blood rush and offer more format solutions - I see my best audience is just as addicted - To give the AIC a facelift launch, I offer the following (played in parallel with the Provs): Top NFL 18 (incl prior 2 Div 3 promoted and 2 POSe Cup finalists less 2 Div 2 relegated) drawn into 6 three-team 'inter-prov' groups (pairing variety with intra-Provs). They play each other once. Top 2 in each group join 4 Prov Champs in AIC Sam Last 16 (Prov Champs bye to AI QFs, if qualifying from groups as well). Other 14 to POSe Cup - 4 three-team groups and 1 'two-legged' Div 4 pair. Best 3 2nds of 4x3 join 5 winners in POS QFs. Two in the final go to AI Sam groups the following year, while all 14 still contest Provs on road to Sam as well. One more below.....merging NFL with AIC: Split each NFL div into two halves. Merge one half of each div (A1, A2, A3, A4) to form 16-team Group A; and 4 other halves (B1, B2, B3, B4) to 16-team Group B. Teams play a 'handicapped' 12-match schedule - as each team in Group A plays 12 of 16 Group B teams. Divs 1 v 4 is avoided (too one sided) as are Divs 2 v 3 (reduces match count). Top 6 in Group A form top half of the AI Sam KO, with non-repeat QFs: 1st in A v (4th or 5th in A) and 2nd in A v (3rd or 6th in A). The 'A QF' winners meet in one AI SF. After Group B plays a similar KO, the AI Final is an 'A v B' Final, the only repeat pairing (if unexpectedly, there are none at all. For following year - even placed teams (2nd, 4th, 6th etc) switch groups for variety - again 1st 4 avoids 4th 4, and 2nd 4 avoids 3rd 4. What do you think ? omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 01/05/2018 23:46:37 2096153 Link
Also, following the '12 v 12', teams placed 7th to 14th (or only 7th to 10th) in each group could contest a POSe Cup KO Last 16 (or QFs instead). Given this season long tiurnament, the Provs need to go or be played separately. omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 01/05/2018 23:51:21 2096154 Link
Replying To gotmilk: "If you want change adopt the rugby model. You play for the county you don't play for your club unless you are released back by your counties to play. If you play for province in rugby you don't play for your club. Why not implement this? If a player feels super loyal to his club he wont play for the county. The county is the pinnacle of most players careers, the county game is miles better than club so why do the members want to sacrifice it?" Totally agree - look how interest in rugby has grown since the Provs became 'super clubs' competing for Euro honours and the Pro 14 (v Provs as 'representative' sides yrs ago). omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 02/05/2018 00:09:33 2096155 Link
Replying To gotmilk: "If you want change adopt the rugby model. You play for the county you don't play for your club unless you are released back by your counties to play. If you play for province in rugby you don't play for your club. Why not implement this? If a player feels super loyal to his club he wont play for the county. The county is the pinnacle of most players careers, the county game is miles better than club so why do the members want to sacrifice it?" Have said for ages to anybody who will listen - the only way forward is to separate the club and county game. If a player "loves his club" more than he "loves his county", then that is his choice. It is the ONLY way we can get a functioning club system, keep club players interested and it also might create a few different club winners. For example, I think every senior club in Wexford would fancy their chances of beating the top teams without their county men. Yes the standard might be lower, but it is surely better than summers passing by and players saying "why do I bother" at club level? Pinkie (Wexford) - Posts: 4100 - 03/05/2018 08:36:43 2096345 Link