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Been doing a little bit of thinking on this one. There were a few permutations going about for what way the top of Division 2 would work out prior to Sunday due to prior cancellations. Would Tipperary end up level on points with Roscommon and Cavan, would the League final be held back until Tipp played Down, what happens if only two sides finish level on points and so on. All a moot point as Roscommon and Cavan won and can't be caught. League final next Sunday, Tipp play down to sort out relegation, not ideal but everyone moves on. Everyone (especially the GAA) are mostly happy as there are no schedule mess ups for April.
Prior to all this, I got thinking about the head to head though. Anyone else think this is an unfair way of separating teams finishing on the same points? For example, this year (although it makes no difference as they're both promoted and in the final) Roscommon finish above Cavan on head to head, even with a worse off score difference. As teams only play once, the one team who plays at home has a distinct advantage. In this case Roscommon played at home. Cavan haven't got anything out of the Hyde in quite a while, and if this was for 2nd and 3rd place, I would have said that was unfair, expecially after they finshed with a better score difference.
I had a quick look back over the last few years of the league. And not picking on Roscommon (it was just the most recent example I could see), but they gained advantage of this in 2015, when they were level on 9 points with Meath, but had an 8 point worse score difference, but they were promoted on the head to head, which they won by again playing at home. Meath stayed in Div 2, while Roscommon had a great campign the next year and seemed to have kicked on from this, winning a Connacht title since. Would things have been different for Meath in the subsquent seasons if they were promoted?
Most of the time, the team with the better head to head also wins the score difference, but do we need a change to this to make it more fair in other circumstances when it goes against an away team with better score difference?
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2383 - 27/03/2018 14:20:28
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Replying To Loughduff Lad: "Been doing a little bit of thinking on this one. There were a few permutations going about for what way the top of Division 2 would work out prior to Sunday due to prior cancellations. Would Tipperary end up level on points with Roscommon and Cavan, would the League final be held back until Tipp played Down, what happens if only two sides finish level on points and so on. All a moot point as Roscommon and Cavan won and can't be caught. League final next Sunday, Tipp play down to sort out relegation, not ideal but everyone moves on. Everyone (especially the GAA) are mostly happy as there are no schedule mess ups for April.
Prior to all this, I got thinking about the head to head though. Anyone else think this is an unfair way of separating teams finishing on the same points? For example, this year (although it makes no difference as they're both promoted and in the final) Roscommon finish above Cavan on head to head, even with a worse off score difference. As teams only play once, the one team who plays at home has a distinct advantage. In this case Roscommon played at home. Cavan haven't got anything out of the Hyde in quite a while, and if this was for 2nd and 3rd place, I would have said that was unfair, expecially after they finshed with a better score difference.
I had a quick look back over the last few years of the league. And not picking on Roscommon (it was just the most recent example I could see), but they gained advantage of this in 2015, when they were level on 9 points with Meath, but had an 8 point worse score difference, but they were promoted on the head to head, which they won by again playing at home. Meath stayed in Div 2, while Roscommon had a great campign the next year and seemed to have kicked on from this, winning a Connacht title since. Would things have been different for Meath in the subsquent seasons if they were promoted?
Most of the time, the team with the better head to head also wins the score difference, but do we need a change to this to make it more fair in other circumstances when it goes against an away team with better score difference?" Meath also benefited from this rule. In 2011 they had three points in Division Two. They had the same amount as Sligo but Sligo were relegated because Meath beat them on the head to head. Meath also had a worse scoring difference than Sligo. Sligo had (-10) were Meath had (-11). It was squeeky bum times for the Royals. They drew their last match with Tyrone and it looked like they were going down till a stoppage time point from Kildare won a one point win against Sligo. Fair play to the Lillies for looking after their neighbours.
OLLIE (Louth) - Posts: 12224 - 27/03/2018 15:30:53
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Agree with OP. Head-to-head only really works if teams play each other home and away. Tie-break criteria should be points first, then score difference, then points scored.
M Lyster (Antrim) - Posts: 461 - 27/03/2018 15:55:25
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Replying To Loughduff Lad: "Been doing a little bit of thinking on this one. There were a few permutations going about for what way the top of Division 2 would work out prior to Sunday due to prior cancellations. Would Tipperary end up level on points with Roscommon and Cavan, would the League final be held back until Tipp played Down, what happens if only two sides finish level on points and so on. All a moot point as Roscommon and Cavan won and can't be caught. League final next Sunday, Tipp play down to sort out relegation, not ideal but everyone moves on. Everyone (especially the GAA) are mostly happy as there are no schedule mess ups for April.
Prior to all this, I got thinking about the head to head though. Anyone else think this is an unfair way of separating teams finishing on the same points? For example, this year (although it makes no difference as they're both promoted and in the final) Roscommon finish above Cavan on head to head, even with a worse off score difference. As teams only play once, the one team who plays at home has a distinct advantage. In this case Roscommon played at home. Cavan haven't got anything out of the Hyde in quite a while, and if this was for 2nd and 3rd place, I would have said that was unfair, expecially after they finshed with a better score difference.
I had a quick look back over the last few years of the league. And not picking on Roscommon (it was just the most recent example I could see), but they gained advantage of this in 2015, when they were level on 9 points with Meath, but had an 8 point worse score difference, but they were promoted on the head to head, which they won by again playing at home. Meath stayed in Div 2, while Roscommon had a great campign the next year and seemed to have kicked on from this, winning a Connacht title since. Would things have been different for Meath in the subsquent seasons if they were promoted?
Most of the time, the team with the better head to head also wins the score difference, but do we need a change to this to make it more fair in other circumstances when it goes against an away team with better score difference?" Will you ever dry your eyes. We finished top and we will win the cup sunday simple as
Cuckoosinging (Roscommon) - Posts: 992 - 27/03/2018 16:00:35
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1.For some reason home advantage in the league isnt t as important as years ago Ros actually points losses were both at home v Meath and Down, Mayo I believe are also a good pointer on this they lost more points than won at castlebar this division 1 campaign.
2. Scoring difference doesn't help a weak side against teams fighting for promotion as this can lead to some very embarrassing score lines and instead of a team taking a point option when in a goal opportunity, they will go for goal every time with the whipping boys of a league getting bad beatings which is no good to them going forward.
OhtobeARossie (Roscommon) - Posts: 1764 - 27/03/2018 16:13:50
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Replying To Cuckoosinging: "Will you ever dry your eyes. We finished top and we will win the cup sunday simple as" Dry my eyes for what? I'm making a comment. I couldn't care less who finished top this year as we're both promoted, I say as much above. I'm merely postulating that if this was between 2nd and 3rd it would be an issue. like what happened in 2015. I'm not picking on Roscommon, it's just the situation that made me think. Don't be so sensitive yourself to think it's all about ye...
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2383 - 27/03/2018 16:38:20
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Replying To Loughduff Lad: "Been doing a little bit of thinking on this one. There were a few permutations going about for what way the top of Division 2 would work out prior to Sunday due to prior cancellations. Would Tipperary end up level on points with Roscommon and Cavan, would the League final be held back until Tipp played Down, what happens if only two sides finish level on points and so on. All a moot point as Roscommon and Cavan won and can't be caught. League final next Sunday, Tipp play down to sort out relegation, not ideal but everyone moves on. Everyone (especially the GAA) are mostly happy as there are no schedule mess ups for April.
Prior to all this, I got thinking about the head to head though. Anyone else think this is an unfair way of separating teams finishing on the same points? For example, this year (although it makes no difference as they're both promoted and in the final) Roscommon finish above Cavan on head to head, even with a worse off score difference. As teams only play once, the one team who plays at home has a distinct advantage. In this case Roscommon played at home. Cavan haven't got anything out of the Hyde in quite a while, and if this was for 2nd and 3rd place, I would have said that was unfair, expecially after they finshed with a better score difference.
I had a quick look back over the last few years of the league. And not picking on Roscommon (it was just the most recent example I could see), but they gained advantage of this in 2015, when they were level on 9 points with Meath, but had an 8 point worse score difference, but they were promoted on the head to head, which they won by again playing at home. Meath stayed in Div 2, while Roscommon had a great campign the next year and seemed to have kicked on from this, winning a Connacht title since. Would things have been different for Meath in the subsquent seasons if they were promoted?
Most of the time, the team with the better head to head also wins the score difference, but do we need a change to this to make it more fair in other circumstances when it goes against an away team with better score difference?" Also ye haven't got anything off Ros in a meaningful match in a long time home, away or croker:-)
OhtobeARossie (Roscommon) - Posts: 1764 - 27/03/2018 16:46:59
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Replying To OhtobeARossie: "1.For some reason home advantage in the league isnt t as important as years ago Ros actually points losses were both at home v Meath and Down, Mayo I believe are also a good pointer on this they lost more points than won at castlebar this division 1 campaign.
2. Scoring difference doesn't help a weak side against teams fighting for promotion as this can lead to some very embarrassing score lines and instead of a team taking a point option when in a goal opportunity, they will go for goal every time with the whipping boys of a league getting bad beatings which is no good to them going forward." Agreeing with you here, it's not cut and dry at all in both cases. I'm just suggesting we look at what is most fair. If we look to another sport, rugby, it has a similar set up in the 6 nations. 6 teams playing 5 games home or away only (versus 8 teams, 7 games home or away in the football), no reverse fixtures. They do not count head to head as there is an emphasis that one of those teams will have had a home advantage. They use score difference only. Ireland won a title in 2014 on score difference that would otherwise have went to Engalnd if head to head was used. They understand that scoring is the best indicator.
It also means that teams are aware of what they need to do on the last day, if it is win by 6 points etc. Makes things more interesting against, well you lost away the first day to Team A, even if you win today you can't go up due to head to head as Team A will eb level on points with you... That first game could have had different conditions, players out injured and all that. Yet that game will hamper you even if you have a great end to the campaign and beat other teams very well.
Look, I've had a quick scan back over the leagues, and 9 times out of 10, the score difference comes out in favour, even when head to head is used. It is also used if more than 2 teams are locked on points. If its fair there, why not just use score differnece all the time is the question I'm asking.
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2383 - 27/03/2018 16:48:50
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Replying To OhtobeARossie: "Also ye haven't got anything off Ros in a meaningful match in a long time home, away or croker:-)" Oh I know, 1 result out of 9 or something for us? Brutal stuff for us, quite the bogey team you are for us. Hopefully that changes Sunday, haha, we do owe ye one! Anyway, this was never meant to be about Roscommon vs Cavan, more about the leagues in general, would like to keep it towards that if we can...
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2383 - 27/03/2018 16:59:26
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Replying To Loughduff Lad: "Oh I know, 1 result out of 9 or something for us? Brutal stuff for us, quite the bogey team you are for us. Hopefully that changes Sunday, haha, we do owe ye one! Anyway, this was never meant to be about Roscommon vs Cavan, more about the leagues in general, would like to keep it towards that if we can..." Best of luck Sunday it a meaningless match bar valuable croker time for young sides, hopefully both teams get what they want from it and no injuries.
On the subject itself it's debatable which is better to split teams we've had the rub of the green and being opposite side my own personal opinion is it's still best of two options.
OhtobeARossie (Roscommon) - Posts: 1764 - 27/03/2018 17:12:57
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I agree with the OP (and not because I am from Cavan). It should be what happens over the course of the 7 games and not just one game. It's particularly harsh when a team is going in to a final game knowing that the outcome of their season is pre-determined because even if the win their rivals for promotion or relegation (who are playing at a different venue) will prevail because of the earlier head-to-head.
s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5518 - 27/03/2018 17:29:34
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Replying To OhtobeARossie: "Best of luck Sunday it a meaningless match bar valuable croker time for young sides, hopefully both teams get what they want from it and no injuries.
On the subject itself it's debatable which is better to split teams we've had the rub of the green and being opposite side my own personal opinion is it's still best of two options." To a point. But I think it'd be a fillup for our guys to win some silverware. You've won a number of league titles and a Connacht recently and you can just tell that the little bit extra in knowing how to win finals comes through in your game. Think it would be a huge difference for the Cavan payers to win. Saying all that, promotion was the main aim at the start of the season, so woudn't be too disappointed
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2383 - 27/03/2018 17:43:09
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I remember a few years ago when it worked the opposite way. Sligo wexford and antrim were all on same points in joint second. I think it was div 4. No head to head as 3 teams tied. Sligo had lost to both wexford and antrim but leapfrogged one or both to promotion on scoring difference. I'm not complaining but if I were Antrim or Wexford I wouldn't have thought it fair.
Also i think there was a year sligo got relegated or missed promotion when it was scoring average and not points difference. I think it was .001 difference.
Bawner (Sligo) - Posts: 39 - 27/03/2018 18:16:32
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As far as I know this is the rule for all club and intercounty leagues. Like most things there are pros and cons. In leagues where there are walkovers scoring difference can be very unfair, as can the unfairness of teams fielding weakened teams against one side when they have nothing to play for after playing their strongest side earlier against other teams. In soccer in Spain and Italy head to head results is used for teams tied on points, it's a touch of European sophistication in our games!
Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 27/03/2018 19:52:37
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Replying To Bawner: "I remember a few years ago when it worked the opposite way. Sligo wexford and antrim were all on same points in joint second. I think it was div 4. No head to head as 3 teams tied. Sligo had lost to both wexford and antrim but leapfrogged one or both to promotion on scoring difference. I'm not complaining but if I were Antrim or Wexford I wouldn't have thought it fair.
Also i think there was a year sligo got relegated or missed promotion when it was scoring average and not points difference. I think it was .001 difference." Completely right about the Sligo/Antrim/Wexford thing, it was the 2010 Division 3. Wexford beat Antrim and Sligo, and Antrim beat Sligo, so if you applied the head-to-head rule across the three teams, it would be Wexford top, Antrim second and Sligo third, straightforward. But instead, goal difference was used and Wexford missed out, with Antrim and Sligo enjoying two promotions in two years. It means that even if only one of Antrim or Sligo had finished on less than 10 points, Wexford would have risen above both teams, despite Wexford's and the other team's 10 points remaining unchanged. Maybe the one rule should be used for all situations, and not have it so that different rules are swapped in based on whatever is handiest to work out in 5 seconds.
Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1029 - 01/04/2018 16:58:41
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Replying To Soma: "As far as I know this is the rule for all club and intercounty leagues. Like most things there are pros and cons. In leagues where there are walkovers scoring difference can be very unfair, as can the unfairness of teams fielding weakened teams against one side when they have nothing to play for after playing their strongest side earlier against other teams. In soccer in Spain and Italy head to head results is used for teams tied on points, it's a touch of European sophistication in our games!" As far as I know though, the head-to-head rule used for all number of teams, not just two. Say if four teams finish level on points. Then they'll make a mini-table based on all their games against each other. (Say then that two teams are level on points in the mini-table; the head-to-head is applied to them. If it's level, then it goes to goal difference etc in the mini-group. And if that didn't split them up, then you'd go back to goal difference etc in the overall league table.)
Everything in brackets is just me rambling, but it's true.
Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1029 - 01/04/2018 17:11:30
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There is merit to Tacasis point t use head to head if more than 2 teams. Break it down to mini league for results between all tied teams and only look to scoring diff if no clear outcome.
This is used in international soccer qualifiers and the European rugby tournaments and is fair as teams play home and away.
Main drawback here us that teams only play each other once. Going back to Sligo Antrim Wexford I think Sligo lost away to Antrim and Wexford so outcome may have been totally different if there were return fixtures.
Which brings me to another point. Every year a teams prospects are seriously impacted by number of home games. Sligo had 4 home games and probably would not have stayed up with 3 home games. If teams are only going to play each other once then surely the league should be in a format with same number of home and away games.
Bawner (Sligo) - Posts: 39 - 02/04/2018 10:05:59
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Replying To Bawner: "There is merit to Tacasis point t use head to head if more than 2 teams. Break it down to mini league for results between all tied teams and only look to scoring diff if no clear outcome.
This is used in international soccer qualifiers and the European rugby tournaments and is fair as teams play home and away.
Main drawback here us that teams only play each other once. Going back to Sligo Antrim Wexford I think Sligo lost away to Antrim and Wexford so outcome may have been totally different if there were return fixtures.
Which brings me to another point. Every year a teams prospects are seriously impacted by number of home games. Sligo had 4 home games and probably would not have stayed up with 3 home games. If teams are only going to play each other once then surely the league should be in a format with same number of home and away games." i don't believe this head-to-head mini-league thing is used in international soccer qualifiers. they use score diff but they discount the results against the bottom team in the group.
s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5518 - 02/04/2018 15:33:56
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Replying To s goldrick: "i don't believe this head-to-head mini-league thing is used in international soccer qualifiers. they use score diff but they discount the results against the bottom team in the group." UEFA use the head-to-head rule to resolve ties in their competitions such as the Champions League and the European Championship qualifiers and finals. FIFA use goal difference and all that in their competitions such as the World Cup qualifiers and finals. As for discarding the results against the bottom team, this is not done to rank teams within a group. This is done to compare, say, group runners-up to each other, because some groups might have different numbers of teams to others. Head-to-head results won't come into it here because these teams from different groups won't have played each other. Both FIFA and UEFA qualifying competitions have used this. Go to this link for a good explanation.
Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1029 - 02/04/2018 23:38:47
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